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Thread: Help me choose an 9mm SMG.

  1. #31
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    Not nearly.
    Last edited by rcpd34; 03-30-12 at 22:21.
    Brian
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    You are absolutely correct. In the arena of subgun matches the Lage Max-11 is better.

    The Lage Mfg. products, Max-10, Max-11 or Max31, win more subgun matches than any other sub-machine gun around here. It also does very well in other matches that I am aware of. (Lage also makes a .22 kit for the M-11 and Max-11.

    The MP-5s do not do well in out matches.

    We do have a Beretta M-12, Carl Gustav M45s (tube guns) and many others that shoot in our matches. Sterling's are few around here but function well.

    As I and others have previously posted, it depends on what you want to do with the gun.
    And that is not the case either.

    Keep in mind subgun matches tend to be populated with guys who have the time and money to buy machine guns. Given that Mac/LAGEs are the most common that is why you see them win so often. There is also a consideration that most people with MP5s don't have as much free time for shooting.

    If you put the same two guns into a SWAT competition or military trials you would get much different results.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    And that is not the case either.

    Keep in mind subgun matches tend to be populated with guys who have the time and money to buy machine guns. Given that Mac/LAGEs are the most common that is why you see them win so often. There is also a consideration that most people with MP5s don't have as much free time for shooting.

    If you put the same two guns into a SWAT competition or military trials you would get much different results.
    At our matches as many people own MP-5s as do Max-11s. The Max-11s win most of the time and always place higher than the MP-5s.

    At least 3 active Tactical Team Members (SWAT) have attended our matches with, although irregularly, with their agency's MP-5s. The same still holds true.

    I have attended a Gunsite MP-5 Course with one of my agency's MP-5s and an le/mil 3 day "SMG Operator" course at Glendale Community College taught by two Glendale PD Tactical Team Members with one of my agency's MP-5 SD's. I also used one while assigned to the range for years. Point being I am familiar with MP-5s.

    Once again, I will stand by my point, "The Lage Mfg. products, Max-10, Max-11 or Max31, win more subgun matches than any other sub-machine gun around here. It also does very well in other matches that I am aware of."

    I never wrote it would win the Military trials or SWAT competitions, although I do not know of any Tactical Teams around here deploying with any more.

    Again, it depends on what you want the gun for.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    At our matches as many people own MP-5s as do Max-11s. The Max-11s win most of the time and always place higher than the MP-5s.

    At least 3 active Tactical Team Members (SWAT) have attended our matches with, although irregularly, with their agency's MP-5s. The same still holds true.

    I have attended a Gunsite MP-5 Course with one of my agency's MP-5s and an le/mil 3 day "SMG Operator" course at Glendale Community College taught by two Glendale PD Tactical Team Members with one of my agency's MP-5 SD's. I also used one while assigned to the range for years. Point being I am familiar with MP-5s.

    Once again, I will stand by my point, "The Lage Mfg. products, Max-10, Max-11 or Max31, win more subgun matches than any other sub-machine gun around here. It also does very well in other matches that I am aware of."

    I never wrote it would win the Military trials or SWAT competitions, although I do not know of any Tactical Teams around here deploying with any more.

    Again, it depends on what you want the gun for.
    Again, I don't think SMG courses, including yours, are the same kind of proving ground as most real world applications.

    Additionally, I don't think any open bolt SMG can compete with a system such as the MP5.

    But if you honestly believe that the special operations community and elite LE would all switch over to the MAC / Lage system with superior results and simply continue to use the MP5 for lack of not knowing well then you are free to have those beliefs.

    I don't share them, my experience tells me otherwise.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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  5. #35
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    DLO trigger pack at $15K is best option IMO. You can get a nice MP5 host from HKPARTS.net made by Joe Stoppiello for $3k

    I have a Fleming sear in a burst pack that resides in a SP89 (civilian MP5K). Shelf packs give options, one trigger pack for a MP5, MP5K, HK91, HK53, etc.
    I have a full size vector UZI, it is choppy when shooting. Rugged but not my favorite.
    My Swedish K is a fun gun and very accurate Takes a while to find one. Suomi stick mags fit and are cheap. Very similar in accuracy is the MP40 but the folding stock on mine doesn't lock tight, that is common. Parts and mags are expensive.
    I also have a Sterling Mk4 and Mk5. Both are keepers, especially the MK5, it is very accurate and Hollywood quiet.

    Don't rule out the SWD M11. Very inexpensive. The Lage Max11 upper is very accurate and fun to shoot. Replace the stock with a Lage stock and you have 9mm fun at a great price. I have two, one has a dedicated .22 conversion kit by Lage and the other is a host for a Max 11 and Max31 uppers. I have 7k rounds through the Max11 upper, it is very reliable.

    Try to shoot your choice before buying. Most big cities having a gun range with rental SMG. SMG matches will probably have what you are looking for. I thought I wanted a Thompson until I shot one, ergonomics are not for me, bought a Swedish K and Sterling Mk4 for the same total cost.

    Parts kits are easy to get for all but the MP40, those are pricey. APEX has several SMG parts kits very cheap. I have a spare parts kit for all but the MP40, just a few critical spares. HKPARTS.net is good for HK. Robert RTG is also good for UZI and HK, he has cheap UZI mags.

    Send a PM if you have any specific questions.

    Good luck
    RFA
    Last edited by Ready.Fire.Aim; 04-01-12 at 02:15.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    Again, I don't think SMG courses, including yours, are the same kind of proving ground as most real world applications. ...
    I agree and never wrote that they were "the same kind of proving ground..." I only wrote that which SMG you should buy depends on what you are going to do with it and that in the arena of subgun matches the Max series is a better/more winning choice than an MP-5.

    There aren't any "Elite Units" around here still using MP-5s. We gave them up in the late 80's for Styer Augs and Colt Commandos. Many agencies around here are still using Commandos and two others are using POFs. The Styer Augs went away years ago. One of the Agencies with POFs just got rid of their HK-416s for them. They only had their 416s for a year. I can't speak for the Military or any other State... I can only speak to my surrounding area.

  7. #37
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    here's a question I've had for a while...

    Does anyone out there offer a sub-gun course? Or Perhaps a DVD of running a sub-gun more efficiently?

    Tons of handgun, carbine, precision, and shotgun courses... but any for sub-gun like the MP5, UMP?

    I myself have a USC-UMP Conversion and an MP5 Clone and would love to attend a class or at the very least get my hands on a good instructional DVD for the basics if there are no classes...

    Gunsite is the only place I've seen so far to offer one
    Last edited by Reagans Rascals; 04-01-12 at 10:43.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reagans Rascals View Post
    here's a question I've had for a while...

    Does anyone out there offer a sub-gun course? Or Perhaps a DVD of running a sub-gun more efficiently?

    Tons of handgun, carbine, precision, and shotgun courses... but any for sub-gun like the MP5, UMP?

    I myself have a USC-UMP Conversion and an MP5 Clone and would love to attend a class or at the very least get my hands on a good instructional DVD for the basics if there are no classes...

    Gunsite is the only place I've seen so far to offer one
    You might check with LMS defense. I have seen Chappy run an MP5 through a shoot house. They could probably put a class together provided there is interest. I think the problem you run into is most deptmartments have dropped the sub gun and gone to SBR AR 15s and most sub guns are a niche product for civis.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reagans Rascals View Post
    here's a question I've had for a while...

    Does anyone out there offer a sub-gun course? Or Perhaps a DVD of running a sub-gun more efficiently?
    Consider hanging out at www.uzitalk.com, or www.subguns.com and asking the same question, those two sites are mostly about submachine guns.

    Often there are serious SMG shooters posting upcoming matches and usually SMG guys are very friendly and willing to help with form and function. You'll probably find a shoot in your area.

    www.hkpro.com had MP5 classes being offered on it's NFA section recently.

    Or you can take the route I did. Shoot about 30,000 rounds through various SMG and I can finally keep most of the bullet holes where I want to. I'm blessed and get to shoot at home, claybirds on a sandpile are a great stress reducer. I would love to take a course from an expert (like the one offered on HKPRO) and probably will one day.

    good luck,
    RFA
    Last edited by Ready.Fire.Aim; 04-01-12 at 13:54.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reagans Rascals View Post
    here's a question I've had for a while...

    Does anyone out there offer a sub-gun course? Or Perhaps a DVD of running a sub-gun more efficiently?

    Gunsite is the only place I've seen so far to offer one

    Front Site, Glendale Community College in Glendale AZ, and Clint Smith are a few I can think of. Singleton and Giles Stock did also, but I do not know it they still do.

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