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Thread: Help me choose an 9mm SMG.

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    I agree and never wrote that they were "the same kind of proving ground..." I only wrote that which SMG you should buy depends on what you are going to do with it and that in the arena of subgun matches the Max series is a better/more winning choice than an MP-5.
    Honestly, when it comes to things like subgun matches, it is usually the shooter more than the weapon. If your competitors swapped weapons for a year I bet the same shooters would still win most of the matches only this time with the MP5.

    I'm really not here to bash on the MAC/Lage system. I've seen too many people win with it. But I've seen the occasional shooter do the same with a S&W 76 but I don't think that is due to the merits of the 76 itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    There aren't any "Elite Units" around here still using MP-5s. We gave them up in the late 80's for Styer Augs and Colt Commandos. Many agencies around here are still using Commandos and two others are using POFs. The Styer Augs went away years ago. One of the Agencies with POFs just got rid of their HK-416s for them. They only had their 416s for a year. I can't speak for the Military or any other State... I can only speak to my surrounding area.
    And before that the MP5 was adopted in place of those old M16s. This was more about caliber doctrine than the merits of M16s vs. MP5s. Same way the FBI suddenly went to .40 handguns and MP5/40s as a result of the Miami shootout.

    Following Princess Gate everyone decided that a short, pistol caliber SMG that was capable of first shot placement and controllable during automatic fire was the way to go and that is why everyone soon had to have an MP5. Within a decade military forces and elite LE began to encounter situations like bad guys wearing body armor and realized the limitations of pistol caliber SMGs for special circumstances. This combined with a FBI materials test and of course the North Hollywood shootout sent most people running back to the M16 platform, usually in an M4 configuration.

    The modern MAC is an interesting platform really. It doesn't suffer the weight issue of the Uzi and in one respect it is a more advanced generation than the MP5 due to the magazine inserting directly into the handle vs. the older forward magazine mount typically found on MP40 type weapons. First time I ran a MAC / Lage setup it was surprising to me because I had expected a MAC covered in Tapco shit.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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  2. #42
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    We are way off the OP's subject, but I agree with most of what you wrote. However, I have seen the same shooters, including myself and my son, shoot with different sub guns in a match and overall they perform better with the Max-11. The guns I have used in a match are an M-16 9mm, my son's Smith 76, a local agency's MP5 and my Max-11. By far the best gun for our matches as far as cyclic rate, reliability, controllability, sights, accessory rail for optics... is the Max-11. We have guys that own more than one gun and their performance is better with their Max-11 and now several are shooting the new Max-31. So, based on these first hand observations, I disagree with you that the same shooter with another gun would perform the same. I practice on Fridays with several other officers and sometimes Rob Leatham joins us. He is Rob Leatham, so he shoots well with every handgun I have seen him shoot, but he does shoot better with certain handguns and has guns built specifically for certain matches. The Max-11 and now Max-31 are two guns that were designed for and perform better at our matches. Ask Richard Lage why he designed the uppers and he will readily admit it was/is for competition and specifically our matches.

    The reason Tactical Teams around here went away from 9mm subguns had to do with over penetration inside a residence... The issued .223 ammo penetrated less than the issued 9mm and performed better when it came to its intended purpose. We did not run into a body armor issue until years after we dropped the MP5's and by that time we had already switched to .223. Giles Stock was the first to bring the penetration issue to me and I had a hard time believing it until we proved it in gelatin, dry wall...

    I must also disclose that Richard Lage is a friend of mine, although I do not believe that has influenced my opinion of his products. We did not become friends until after I first saw him shooting his Max-11 prototype and formed my opinion of his product at that time.
    Last edited by az doug; 04-01-12 at 22:47.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    The modern MAC is an interesting platform really. It doesn't suffer the weight issue of the Uzi and in one respect it is a more advanced generation than the MP5 due to the magazine inserting directly into the handle vs. the older forward magazine mount typically found on MP40 type weapons. First time I ran a MAC / Lage setup it was surprising to me because I had expected a MAC covered in Tapco shit.
    If Gordon Ingram had revised his design to reduce the cyclic rate and incorporated a few of the other changes Lage came up with, he would have sold a LOT more subguns back in the day. Especially if he lead the charge with mounting lights, lasers. (two big what-ifs)

    Even with the silly high cyclic rate, I'm kind of surprised they weren't more popular.

    Light, compact, CHEAP, and bundled with a suppressor, with those mods, I don't think Uzi would have been as popular.

    It just needed:

    1) Slower cyclic rate
    2) Better Magazines
    3) Sights

    ...in that order.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    I disagree with you that the same shooter with another gun would perform the same.
    I did stress that they would have to spend a suitable amount of time on the new system. But you may still disagree with that assertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    The reason Tactical Teams around here went away from 9mm subguns had to do with over penetration inside a residence.
    That would be the FBI materials test I referenced.

    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    I must also disclose that Richard Lage is a friend of mine, although I do not believe that has influenced my opinion of his products. We did not become friends until after I first saw him shooting his Max-11 prototype and formed my opinion of his product at that time.
    And what I have seen leads me to the other conclusion. And there we are.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
    If Gordon Ingram had revised his design to reduce the cyclic rate and incorporated a few of the other changes Lage came up with, he would have sold a LOT more subguns back in the day. Especially if he lead the charge with mounting lights, lasers. (two big what-ifs)

    Even with the silly high cyclic rate, I'm kind of surprised they weren't more popular.

    Light, compact, CHEAP, and bundled with a suppressor, with those mods, I don't think Uzi would have been as popular.

    It just needed:

    1) Slower cyclic rate
    2) Better Magazines
    3) Sights

    ...in that order.
    There are so many "what ifs" in small arms history. Basically the MAC was a "budget Uzi" that could be mass produced. And I think it did it's job well.

    An important distinction is that the Uzi was 9mm and the MAC was a .45 and yet the MAC was smaller. Slowing down the cyclic rate then meant increasing the weight of the bolt and it was already heavy enough. Rate reducing buffers would have required more R&D than they were willing to invest.

    As for mags, to be successful it had to use an existing magazine and in .45 you have two choices, grease gun magazines or thompson magazines. They chose the correct magazine.

    I actually think the M10 was great for what it was, at the time. It just had a few drawbacks like most systems.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

    كافر

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    I did stress that they would have to spend a suitable amount of time on the new system. But you may still disagree with that assertion.
    You are correct, I still disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    That would be the FBI materials test I referenced.
    And I was referring to the mid-80's testing I personally took part in which led local agency's Tactical Teams to swap their HK MP-5s for 5.56 caliber firearms. Not all chose the AR platform, but they did choose the caliber.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    And what I have seen leads me to the other conclusion. And there we are.
    I had been competing in subgun matches with an M16 and an MP5 long before I met Richard Lage. I also became sold on his product and ordered his upper before we became friends. After receiving his upper and shooting it, I liked it so much I bought two more M-11s and Max-11 uppers for family members, one of which already owned his own subgun, a Smith 76. Later Richard and I became friends. Read into it what you will.
    Last edited by az doug; 04-02-12 at 15:13.

  7. #47
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    I guess I don't understand the driving need for a different platform here. Were it me, I'd build a top shelf 9mm M-16 setup and use all that extra money for ammo.

    Since the OP wants "different" and suppressed, I'd probably go with the MP5A3 type setup. Either the DLO for top quality or a shelf pack setup if you want to use it on multiple hosts. As someone who's owned a slow fire converted M11 and a RR M-16, I do not miss the M11 setup at all.

    Either way, make sure you get one of the newer design user serviceable cans. Running FA, you'll want the ability to clean it out after a while.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by glocktogo View Post
    I guess I don't understand the driving need for a different platform here. Were it me, I'd build a top shelf 9mm M-16 setup and use all that extra money for ammo.
    That's still my pick.

  9. #49
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    Well if you like ergonomics like a 2x4 and no input as to how the human body moves or works it it's design, then the choice is clear. If you like shooting something comfortable and accurate, the choice is clear. I would go 1 MP5 and 2 M16 9mm. If money was not an issue, go MP5, if modularity is an issue, M16. if you just want to go ape shit with ammo and don't care what the lead is comming out of, steel box it is. Or a bump fire stock.......
    Last edited by 99HMC4; 04-03-12 at 11:57.
    FFL/SOT

    Chuck Norris has to maintain a concealed weapon license in all 50 states in order to legally wear pants.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by 99HMC4 View Post
    Well if you like ergonomics like a 2x4 and no input as to how the human body moves or works it it's design, then the choice is clear. If you like shooting something comfortable and accurate, the choice is clear. I would go 1 MP5 and 2 M16 9mm. If money was not an issue, go MP5, if modularity is an issue, M16. if you just want to go ape shit with ammo and don't care what the lead is comming out of, steel box it is. Or a bump fire stock.......
    LOL... I'll bet you really get mad when an MP5 gets bested by a Lage on the range...

    There's no doubt an MP5 feels more "delightful" or "wonderful" or whatever than any MAC mod could, but it's also a terrible platform for mounting any kind of modern RDS.

    Still, my choice is:

    1) 9mm AR
    2) MP5
    3) Lage MAX-11

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