Least Expensive 1-4x That's "Rugged Enough"?

[SomeOtherGuy]

The Leupold VX-R Patrol is a 1.25-4X and not a real 1.1-4X optic (an actual 1X where you can co-witness with irons is not currently possible with variable magnification optics).

I think you're combining what are two separate issues: magnification, and ability to co-witness. I have two Burris 1-4x24 scopes (one Euro Diamond, one FF TAC30) and both seem to be a true 1.0x at the low end - I'm certain with the ED, while the TAC30 might be like 1.05 or something. This is based on having both eyes open and being able to see that objects are identical in size and continue seamlessly inside/outside the ocular image while running at 1x. I also had (briefly) a Nikon M-223 1-4x20 where the "1x" was a wide angle around 0.8x. It's not hard to make a true non-magnifying lens, but it involves design compromises and some companies choose not to make such compromises.

On the AR equipped with the ED, I also have a flip front BUIS. Despite the 1x scope, you cannot co-witness the front sight. It is too close to the objective lens to get in focus, and even if you could focus on it it would only be a co-witness when your eye was precisely in the center of the scope.

As I understand it, the fundamental issue is that conventional scopes (magnifying or true 1x) work differently from red dot sights, which do not create any internal image or require any focusing, they simply project a dot in a location that always appears to be the same relative to a distant target. Leupold makes a 1x optical sight, the "Prismatic", which works like a magnifying scope but is fixed at 1x. It can be used somewhat like a red dot, but is not a red dot.

http://www.leupold.com/tactical/prod...illum-reticle/

[Singlestack Wonder]

I think you're combining what are two separate issues: magnification, and ability to co-witness. I have two Burris 1-4x24 scopes (one Euro Diamond, one FF TAC30) and both seem to be a true 1.0x at the low end - I'm certain with the ED, while the TAC30 might be like 1.05 or something. This is based on having both eyes open and being able to see that objects are identical in size and continue seamlessly inside/outside the ocular image while running at 1x. I also had (briefly) a Nikon M-223 1-4x20 where the "1x" was a wide angle around 0.8x. It's not hard to make a true non-magnifying lens, but it involves design compromises and some companies choose not to make such compromises.

On the AR equipped with the ED, I also have a flip front BUIS. Despite the 1x scope, you cannot co-witness the front sight. It is too close to the objective lens to get in focus, and even if you could focus on it it would only be a co-witness when your eye was precisely in the center of the scope.

As I understand it, the fundamental issue is that conventional scopes (magnifying or true 1x) work differently from red dot sights, which do not create any internal image or require any focusing, they simply project a dot in a location that always appears to be the same relative to a distant target. Leupold makes a 1x optical sight, the "Prismatic", which works like a magnifying scope but is fixed at 1x. It can be used somewhat like a red dot, but is not a red dot.

http://www.leupold.com/tactical/prod...illum-reticle/

Tomac had a few of these........

[BrigandTwoFour]

I am a huge fan of my TR24 for a general purpose rifle. However, I did have one issue a few months back.

While I was building my second carbine, I had already purchased an EOTech XPS 2, and was regularly swapping optics back and forth. One day I pulled my gun out of the case and went to shoot a 9 hole drill on a VTAC barrier with the TR24, only to find my hits were going 2 feet low and left (at 50 yards).

Come to find out the turrets had not only moved, but they had popped up and spun freely, making find my original zero impossible. The optic had to be rezeroed.

I don't know how that happend, but it was worrying, as I would hate for something like that to happen when it really mattered. I expect it was a fluke, and do recommend the TR24, though.

[a0cake]

I think you're combining what are two separate issues: magnification, and ability to co-witness. I have two Burris 1-4x24 scopes (one Euro Diamond, one FF TAC30) and both seem to be a true 1.0x at the low end - I'm certain with the ED, while the TAC30 might be like 1.05 or something. This is based on having both eyes open and being able to see that objects are identical in size and continue seamlessly inside/outside the ocular image while running at 1x.

On the AR equipped with the ED, I also have a flip front BUIS. Despite the 1x scope, you cannot co-witness the front sight. It is too close to the objective lens to get in focus, and even if you could focus on it it would only be a co-witness when your eye was precisely in the center of the scope.

As I understand it, the fundamental issue is that conventional scopes (magnifying or true 1x) work differently from red dot sights, which do not create any internal image or require any focusing, they simply project a dot in a location that always appears to be the same relative to a distant target. Leupold makes a 1x optical sight, the "Prismatic", which works like a magnifying scope but is fixed at 1x. It can be used somewhat like a red dot, but is not a red dot.

http://www.leupold.com/tactical/prod...illum-reticle/

If you do the "ruler test" (held close to the OBJ lens) as pictured below you will see the same thing going on (not a true 1X), even with the optics you say are true 1X. Though you can't notice it looking at distant objects, the image is in fact being magnified.

Credit goes to Molon for the picture.



At the end of the day variable magnification optics and near 1X optics like the Leupold Prismatic (which also cannot cowitness) can't cowitness and do magnify by the nature of their construction.

Whether the inability to cowitness is due to the magnification or the creation of an internal image by nature of the optic's construction as you said, I don't know. I'm no engineering expert but it seems like a bit of both.

I really wasn't trying to get to the mechanical cause of the issue when I said "an actual 1X where you can co-witness with irons is not currently possible with variable magnification optics." But it seems to me that an optic that A) is a true 1X B) can vary magnification and C) Cowitness with irons, can't happen.