The history of Dum-Dum bullets...

[TiroFijo]

Very interesting, specially how the terminal effects were exaggerated, resulting in their ban for military use:

http://pfoa.co.uk/248/dum-dum-bullets

Doc GKR posted a few times links to medical articles/books of the time describing GSW, that seem to support the notion that Snider 577 and similar all-llead bullets (perhaps including large caliber spherical or Minié bullets at lower velocity) were actually inflicting larger wounds than .303 bullets withs flat points and a bit of exposed lead, or even hollow points with the jackets turned inside:

[DocGKR]

Additional info here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19937

[200RNL]

Very interesting, thanks for posting.

There is no test in existance that can compare with the experience of thousands of soldiers facing fanatical warriors carrying large edged weapons, who are closing in, with the intention of hacking said soldiers to pieces.

I would give great weight to the thousands of anecdotes from those engagements.

[200RNL]

Nevertheless the level of misinformation that was circulating about the supposed devastating effect of the Dum-Dum bullet was illustrated again when the subject came up for discussion in the House of Commons on 1 March 1898. The India Secretary was asked ‘whether the specific quality of the Dum-Dum bullets supplied to the British troops to be used against the Afridis consists in crushing and pulverising the bone so as to defy all surgical skill employed in setting; in what respects are the Dum-Dum bullets less calculated than explosive bullets, to inflict incurable injury; and, what is the authority for the statement that the Dum-Dum bullets are consonant with international law or the usages of civilised warfare?’ Hamilton replied that: ‘According to the information supplied to me, the effects of this bullet are not more serious (indeed, I believe, they are less serious) than those of the old Snider bullet nor than those of the Martini-Henry bullet. But, on the other hand, as was clearly shown during the Chitral expedition, the Lee-Metford bullet frequently failed to attain the object with which all missiles are discharged in war, namely, that of disabling the enemy with the least possible suffering. The Dum-Dum bullet fulfils this purpose, as did the bullets previously used by the British Army, and fulfils it in the same way.’ When pressed on the wounding effect of the bullet he said that: ‘There is no doubt that the so-called Dum-Dum bullet inflicts a more serious wound than a [Mark II] bullet from the Lee-Metford rifle, but not more so than the bullet previously in use. I believe anyone can convert the Lee-Metford bullet into a Dum-Dum bullet by simply flattening its head’.

It appears that in the experience of the British Army, the smaller caliber expanding bullets did as well as the larger caliber lead bullets that also would have expanded.

I wonder sometimes if it is not the expanded diameter of the bullet but it's flattened nose that produces the desired effect. As an example, in contrast, would a .45 caliber 500 gr RN FMJ projectile be as ineffective as a .303 caliber 215 gr RN FMJ projectile, when fired against attacking hordes of fanatic warriors.

I wish that there were .303 Dum Dum and Mark IV and V hollow point bullets available to test using the current modern methods. I doubt there are any around as I have never actually seen any.

[TMS951]

What effect would exposing the tip of M193 have, could favorable results be expected?

[DocGKR]

No. It would act like a non-bonded 55 gr JSP--insufficient penetration in soft tissue and poor intermediate barrier capability w/likely core-jacket separation.

[urbankaos04]

Additional info here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19937

This still floors me every time I read it.

[200RNL]

Very interesting, specially how the terminal effects were exaggerated, resulting in their ban for military use

If unjacketed lead bullets could have been successfully fired from the smaller bores, the difference in wounding, between the large and small bores, would have been less noticable and I doubt that there would have been controversy.

Doc GKR posted a few times links to medical articles/books of the time describing GSW, that seem to support the notion that Snider 577 and similar all-llead bullets (perhaps including large caliber spherical or Minié bullets at lower velocity) were actually inflicting larger wounds than .303 bullets withs flat points and a bit of exposed lead, or even hollow points with the jackets turned inside:

The soft and hollow point .303 bullets were only duplicating what any unjacketed soft lead bullet would do at rifle velocities. Less severe wounds were noted as soon as the first FMJ bullets were introduced. The .577 bullet would have been fully jacketed if that caliber had remained standard issue.

The effects of non deforming, fully jacketed bullets got the attention of those who felt wars could be fought in ways that caused less crippling injuries. Once it was discovered how to build a FMJ bullet, the cat was out of the bag.

[D-R]

Very interesting, thanks for posting.

There is no test in existance that can compare with the experience of thousands of soldiers facing fanatical warriors carrying large edged weapons, who are closing in, with the intention of hacking said soldiers to pieces.

I would give great weight to the thousands of anecdotes from those engagements.

"You kill 'em because they have f*cking swords! You ever had someone running at you waving a f*cking sword?"

Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon

The stories regarding core blowouts with the mark I Dum-Dums are a bit disconcerting. Would not be something I would want to experience with hordes of screaming fanatics swarming my position....

[200RNL]

"You kill 'em because they have f*cking swords! You ever had someone running at you waving a f*cking sword?"

Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon

I'm surprised that there isn't more interest in this. It may have happened over 100yrs ago but it does give insight on what projectile designs worked in a very dangerous and very real world.

The stories regarding core blowouts with the mark I Dum-Dums are a bit disconcerting. Would not be something I would want to experience with hordes of screaming fanatics swarming my position..

I suspect that core blowouts were rare with Mk I Dum Dum ammunition. If one did happen, I would imagine that the next round ironed the jacket into the bore and the damage (barrel bulge) was not discovered until after action maintenance.