Talk to me about armor, plates, plate carriers, etc.

[Dave L.]

Dave,



I got a Crye chassis incoming and I hope that it will be the best of both worlds.

How long is the wait list for a Crye Chassis? If I get dragon skin I will fly out to AZ and have them fit me in house, and get the BALCS cut to fit in a CIRAS.
Post pics of the Crye Chassis when you get it.
Take care and be safe,
Dave (in safe kurdistan)

[Iraq Ninja]

Let me know how the visit to Az goes.

Crye is providing me the armor, clothes, etc through a training organization I am associated with in Texas. We have a working relationship with Crye, and I get to test stuff over here.

I had to wait a few months so they could pull my sizes off the line as they were being made. Not even sure what version of the chassis I am getting, since it depends on what "special customer" was having theirs made. I have tried it before, and I really like the mobility it offers.

Only thing is that I have to add are side plates to be in compliance with our company's insurance policy. I think they also have a new helmet that I get to play with.

I pick the stuff up this month while on leave and will post some detailed pics. If you ever get to the IZ, let me know and you can check it out.

I am also very interested in the Defend-X Lightweight Level III plates.

[SHIVAN]

I have armor purely for future training in shoothouses, etc.

I went with the Eagle plate carrier. I also have a IIIA vest that rides underneath the carrier. They are two seperate pieces, and the carrier gets heavy fast.

I still have my Gamma III+ plates, but they are thick, and single curved. They are, however, multi hit ceramic plates which is the main feature I liked.

The new plates I have in the Eagle are triple curved operator cut 10x12 front, with IIIA backer, and a single curve 10x12 back plate with IIIA backer. I forget the maker though while at work.

I have not used this setup yet, but might try it out in March just to see how I like it, or not. The mag pouch setup is kinda similar, but really very different, from the standard Eagle chest carrier I normally use in classes. Main difference is that all my pistol mags needed to go on the carrier too. I usually run them on my belt with an "emergency" carbine reload there too.

Being a civilian, I only have one row of mag pouches on the carrier, and 5 or 6 1911 pouches.

It's heavy, it makes prone kinda high of the ground and I can't say I envy the guys who wear it every day.

Finding good deals on armor can be had by surfing the net after you decide on a make and model. The one biggest hurdle I found was the lack of dealers willing to sell armor to civilians.

[boltcatch]

I'm assuming rob_s has some sort of reason in mind for wanting the armor in the first place, but personally, the type of armor I like the best is armor I don't have to wear, because I'm a grad student and I don't need it to walk down to the Quickie Mart.

That said, I've owned my own of various sorts for years (first being a gear queer, and then having some classes in mind as a civilian), and I find that the best solution for me is to get something light enough that I'll use it consistently.

[Patrick Aherne]

Dave,

I believe that recommending Dragonskin is dangerous and not good advice. I had credit card in hand and had made a call to schedule an appointment to go get fitted at their factory, when the guy who runs the company, Murray, got caught lying at lightfighter, repeatedly. Generally, the armor business has an ethical standard that would make snak oil salesmen blush, but I'm not buying a vest from a known liar.

This was going to be on my own dime, for an all-twaron concealable vest.

Rob,

An Eagle CIRAS will contain both soft armor and hard plates. My issue one takes heat-sealed PACA IIIA panels and US Armor Poly level III plates.

[Snaquebite]

Anyone who reccomends DS is either uninformed or working for Murray Neal IMHO. (Nothing Personal)

Here are some facts:

1) The one NIJ model they had was decertified by NIJ. The Department of Justice (DOJ), Office of Justice Programs (OJP) announced today that it has determined that the Pinnacle Armor, Inc. bulletproof vest model SOV 2000.1/MIL3AF01, is not in compliance with the requirements of OJP's National Institute of Justice (NIJ) voluntary compliance testing program for bullet-resistant body armor. Effective immediately, this body armor model will be removed from the NIJ list of bullet-resistant body armor models that satisfy its requirements. Pinnacle Armor, Inc. is the maker of "dragon skin" body armor.

2) Air Force Materiel Command recommended that the Air Force bar Pinnacle Armor Inc., the maker of Dragon Skin body armor, from signing new contracts with the U.S. government. OSI contracted to buy 590 Dragon Skin vests based on literature from and claims by the company, Douglas Thomas, executive director of OSI, testified June 6 on Capitol Hill.

The vests were delivered and fielded between October 2005 and January 2006 to deployed and deploying OSI agents, Thomas said.

Dragon Skin subsequently failed two tests conducted by the Air Force.

“In February 2006, we issued a stop order/immediate discontinue message to all our personnel, which basically says stop using them ... and send them back to headquarters,” said Capt. Christine Millette, an OSI spokeswoman.

On May 11, 2006, OSI received verification from the National Law Enforcement and Corrections Technology Center that the type of Dragon Skin vests the Air Force purchased had not been tested or certified to National Institute of Justice standards, Thomas said.

“That was a big surprise because that’s one of the reasons we purchased the vests,” he said, adding that the vests received by OSI were clearly and falsely marked NIJ Level III.

3) The DOD/Army tested to standard with hours of taped footage. DS failed period.

4) The Dragon Skin design will always have a vulnerability at single disc area of coverage because there is an air gap under the center of the disc where it lays up against adjacent discs. If you work for a body armor company and you don't understand that ceramics can't stop anything unless they are substrated, then you are a danger to yourself and others.

5) Best of all, here's a guy who's advocating wearing level 3 armor that stops 7.62 lead core ball to a military theater with a level 4 7.62 AP threat.

[DocGKR]

1. Don't get a Dragonskin. We did a limited test of the Pinnacle Dragon Skin SOV-2000 Level III armor for a CA LE agency back in 2006. While the Dragonskin stopped all the Level III test rounds, just like it did during its NIJ certification test, we recommended the agency NOT purchase Dragonskin until long term durability and ballistic testing had been completed, as there were far too many unanswered questions.

2. Your supposition regarding plate carriers for LE is correct--most officers will already be wearing concealable soft armor in the Level II to IIIa range and just need to thow on a plate carrier with Level III plates to provide protection from non-AP rifle threats. You could also use Level IV plates, but this is probably overkill for this potential threats being faced. The key in this situation is a simple plate carrier without cummerbund that is fast to don--I like the TT plate carriers for this application.

3. Plate carriers can also be used with a stand-alone plate like the AMI or with a piece of soft armor behind an inconjunction plate so that you do not have to be wearing soft armor underneath--this is a good set-up for folks who are not generally wearing armor, but may need to quickly get protected. Keep in mind, there is no side-armor protection in this set-up, unless you use an armored cummerbund, but then the carrier is much slower to put-on and you might as well be using a tactical armor carrier at that point.

4. Tactical armor carriers like the CIRAS or RAV hold both the soft armor (BALCS armor or the Level IIIa equivalent) and Level III or IV plates. These carriers provide better side armor protection, but are slower to get on and are bulkier. The Crye armor falls in to this category and is among the best options available, although it is hard to acquire and expensive.

5. While OCONUS military threats frequently require Level IV plates that can stop AP threats, most civilian and LE threats are stopped with more affordable and durable Level III plates.

We have seen M855 penetrate right through many Level III hard compressed polyethelene (Dyneema and Spectra) plates; on the other hand, the LeMas 40 gr "Urban Warfare" at 3700+ f/s was easily stopped by these same plates...in contrast, we've also shot 5 mm MARS steel plates and while 30 rd full auto mag dumps of M855 would bounce right off, every shot of the LeMas smoked right through--exact opposite of the results when shooting the hard polyethelene plates. The AMI Level III plates stopped both M855 and LeMas, as well as M43 steel core 7.62x39 mm rounds.

Bottom line, make sure you test your proposed plates against the threats you expect to face.

[TimW]

Dave

Fitted for DS in Arizona? When did Pinnacle move here?

[DocGKR]

Their web page still says Fresno: http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/contact-us.php

[KevinB]

FYI KevinB is NOT wearing DragonSkin anymore --
1) the LIII plates where not the threat I face
2) inconsitencies with their testing versus everyone else's leads me to question them
3) they are heavier than the ESAPI I replaced them with.

I also have a lite rig (DBT FAPC) that I run with the LIII Poly Plates, a a PACA soft armor carrier

For my CIRAS I use the LIV ESAPI in conjunction with IIIA soft

DBT makes a Berry Compliant ESAPI for sale if your LE/MIL or DOD/DOS contractor


Edit: those Poly plates I have stopped 5 rounds of M855 in our range day here.