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Thread: Trouble zeroing with irons only.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by nato762 View Post
    May I suggest you attend an Applesed. There should be one nearby you and it is a cheap and effective way to learn/reinforce rifle marksmanship fundamentals....plus it's a lot of fun. It's nothing fancy but fundamentals rarely are and without fundamentals... well it could end like a directv commercial. Oh and your wife can attend for only $10...great way to spend a weekend together !

    www.appleseedusa.org
    Thanks for the info. Just signed up for April 28th 29th. I Think this will help me because I have not had any kind of training.
    Peace the old fashion way

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by OdinIII View Post
    How old are you? How well do you see? I recently traded for an AR with a fixed carry handle and discovered at the first range session that I just can't see as well as I used to be able to.

    I was shooting at two bulls placed in a vertical line about 1 foot apart. On the top bull I was grouping a few inches left and on the bottom bull I was grouping a few inches left and a few inches down. Must have been something optical going on with how I was seeing the sights and target.

    Maybe the unconventional rear sight and/or aging eyes may be your problem.
    I am 38 and I wear contacts so I don't think my eyesight is my problem, after I get some training I will let everybody know how I do. Again thanks for the help.
    Peace the old fashion way

  3. #23
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    PMC ammo is fine and definitely not your problem.

    1. Mechanically zero out your rig.

    A. You want your front sight post flush within the front sight base.
    B. You want your windage centered on your rear/buis.
    C. Depending on the model of rear/buis you also want to set your elevation to "Z" for zero 8/3 Rifle, 8/3-2 Rifle USMC, 6/3 carbine or equivalent 300m battle sight zero setting.

    As another poster mentioned you can use the tip of a 5.56mm round to adjust your front sight post. Being that most projectiles aren't very pointy I use the fag tool.

    To avoid the problem of "I'm not even hitting paper". Zero at 25 meters or roughly 83 ft. It's nice to use a BZO target but any target with a prominent center bull will do.

    The key to a good zero is getting "a good group". It really doesn't matter where on the target you initially get "the group"...but you have to get a group. Once you get a group, then you can adjust your group into the black by making corrections for elevation and windage on your Rifle.

    If your a NSF (non shooting ****) and your groups are all over like buck shot well that's beyond the scope of this posting

    All BZO elevation changes should be made via your front sight post not your rear sight and windage is made via your rear sight. Drilling down with your FSP will bring your POI up and vice versa. For windage, left is left and right is right.

    Stick with the 3, 3, 4 scenario. Fire 3 well aimed shots. Go down range and mark the target and make the needed adjustments to your rifle. Fire another 3 well aimed shots etc etc. Once you have it dialed in you can fire additional strings and fine tune to your liking.

    All shots should be aimed center mass and don't forget to apply good fundamentals of marksmanship. Prone is the most stable position, proper sight alignment, sight picture, stock weld, good trigger control - slow steady squeeze straight and to the rear and of course follow through. That means...once the shot breaks, don't break stock weld to rubber neck and look downrange as if your going to actually ****ing see where the rounds strike. Trust me, I see this dumb shit all the time.

    Once you get a good 25m battle sight zero and your confident in your stick then feel free to transition back to 100 yards, do the sponge bob square pants zero or whatever.
    Last edited by O3SKILL; 04-15-12 at 18:16.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by O3SKILL View Post
    1. Mechanically zero out your rig.

    A. You want your front sight post flush within the front sight base.
    B. You want your windage centered on your rear/buis.
    C. Depending on the model of rear/buis you also want to set your elevation to "Z" for zero 8/3 Rifle, 8/3-2 Rifle USMC, 6/3 carbine or equivalent 300m battle sight zero setting.
    There is absolutely no need for the OP to go back and mechanically zero his sights, since he has already shot and is on paper at 50 yards.

    To avoid the problem of "I'm not even hitting paper". Zero at 25 meters or roughly 83 ft. It's nice to use a BZO target but any target with a prominent center bull will do.
    The OP has already shot at 50 yards. No need to revert to 25, since he is already tracking groups.
    Further, POA/POI at 25 is useless, should be going for 1-1.5 inches low at 25, unless you have a weapon with a "300" aiming point and are trying to achieve a 300 meter zero, which is pretty much useless unless you have an actual 300 meter target to confirm on.

    Looks like the OP os trying to achieve a 50 yard zero, and while it isn't what I recommend, it is a viable method.

    All BZO elevation changes should be made via your front sight post not your rear sight and windage is made via your rear sight. Drilling down with your FSP will bring your POI up and vice versa. For windage, left is left and right is right.
    The rear sight he is referencing does not have the ability to be adjusted for elevation.
    For future reference, it's a good idea to read all the replies, follow all the links, and know what you are talking about before posting a reply.

    Once you get a good 25m battle sight zero and your confident in your stick then feel free to transition back to 100 yards, do the sponge bob square pants zero or whatever.
    What is a "sponge bob square pants zero"?
    Jack Leuba
    Director, Military and Government Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  5. #25
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    I am curious as to how often you adjusted and by how much each time and if there is any play in the sight, mostly asking in case your adjusting to much or anything like that.

    At any rate it sounds like you have an inconsistent sight picture as far as horizontal goes with the high impact possibly being an incorrect sight picture, the sight needing raised, or pressure from the bi-pod (if attached to barrel in some manor including none free float hand guards) tilting the barrel up. Unless your doing something screwy with the adjusting.
    Luck is awesome. The more proficient you are at what you do the luckier you seem to be.

    Do what you love and love what you do.

    Shooter and survivalist by hobby.

  6. #26
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    This thread is timely for me. I was hesitant to start a thread, even tho I couldn’t come up with anything with a search. I shot my 6920 for the first time yesterday. Weather and minor surgery have kept me from the range for over a month. I started off at 100 feet just putting two mags thru it taking crude aim at a target. Nothing hit the target. I was surprised, but I was playing more than trying for groups, but I expected lots of holes on the paper. So, I did the next thing I was going to do anyway, and set up on a bench rest at 50 yards, and took 10 careful shots. Nothing on the paper. I could see it looked like they were several inches below the paper. At this point, I decided to quit, as I had already sited one other brand new gun and was probably just tired. I have done a lot of reading and searching last night and today, and what I found was that Colt zeros the rifles for 300 meters. Now, I know what I need to do on the next trip to the range, and am looking forward to it. Long winded lead up to my question. Why does Colt (and others?) Zero their AR’s at 300 meters?
    Gary
    Will Fly for Food... and more Ammo

    Alcohol, Tobacco, & Firearms should be the name of a convenience store, not a government agency.

  7. #27
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    Going on a 300 yard zero you should be about 1" low at 25yds, 1" high at 50 yds, around 4" high at 100 yds. Differences in ammo and rifles will changes this a little bit, but it will be close.

  8. #28
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    DM - add this link to review (in addition to all the others given above)

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=103628

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by wingspar View Post
    This thread is timely for me. I was hesitant to start a thread, even tho I couldn’t come up with anything with a search. I shot my 6920 for the first time yesterday. Weather and minor surgery have kept me from the range for over a month. I started off at 100 feet just putting two mags thru it taking crude aim at a target. Nothing hit the target. I was surprised, but I was playing more than trying for groups, but I expected lots of holes on the paper. So, I did the next thing I was going to do anyway, and set up on a bench rest at 50 yards, and took 10 careful shots. Nothing on the paper. I could see it looked like they were several inches below the paper. At this point, I decided to quit, as I had already sited one other brand new gun and was probably just tired. I have done a lot of reading and searching last night and today, and what I found was that Colt zeros the rifles for 300 meters. Now, I know what I need to do on the next trip to the range, and am looking forward to it. Long winded lead up to my question. Why does Colt (and others?) Zero their AR’s at 300 meters?
    The 300m BZO (Battle Sight Zero) allows you to strike a man sized target from 0-300m without having to make any adjustment to your iron sights.

    As you've seen in this thread and others everybody seems to have a favorite zero/setup and they all stink to somebody else. There are reasons the military uses a 25m BZO. Two being the simplicity and avoiding the aforementioned "I'm not hitting anything" phenomenon that you've personally experienced. When that happens it sucks. What a bummer to take your new stick to the range and you can barely get on paper right? You certainly don't drive home feeling confident in yourself and your gear. That's a problem.

    I'm not saying the 25m zero is the end all be all or the perfect zero for every one. Individual mission as well as what you simply prefer and train with always dictates. For instance former 1st SFOD member now Firearms Instructor Paul Howe. If you go to Paul's web site www.combatshootingandtactics.com Paul has several published articles you can read/print off including his preferred BZO and why HE uses this particular zero. Reading up on Paul's background, his former unit's primary mission, his combat experience, the fact that he also caters to LEO etc. His BZO works for how HE trains and operates. It also allows him to shoot across HIS course of fire and meet HIS standards (shot placement) without making adjustments to HIS sights. Paul went so far as to develop his own unique rear sight aperture in conjunction with AE. Outside of going to one of Paul's classes, would I ever recommend a new guy go to Paul's web site and adopt Paul's way of setting up their Rifle. Well they could do much worse, but I wouldn't because I don't believe they would be very successfully with it out of the gate.

    I'm all for having an open mind and progression, but without a strong foundation the house will fall. Next time you take your 6920 to the range try out the 25m BZO and report back. I guarantee you will be pleased and build your confidence back. After that, go ahead and experiment with other zero's/set ups to tailor them to you and your specific needs.

    As mentioned above and in closing. No matter what BZO you use and how you set your stick up. The only way you can confirm that set up is to go to the range, fire at different ranges known/unknown and then actually walk that range to physically SEE where your rounds strike at those ranges. If your happy/confident then stick with it, if not then change it.

    Hope that helps.

    O3 out!!

  10. #30
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    We're arguing about zero distance in a thread where either the guy, the gun, the ammo, or the sights can't print a group?

    Zero distance is wholly irrelevant if you can't shoot a group. If it's a mechanical problem it needs to be addressed, if it's a skill issue it needs to be trained out.

    Until the OP reports back that he can keep the rounds in some kind of discernible group at 25 yards, regardless of where they are on the paper, the rest of this is off-topic.

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