Lets talk Marksmanship and Realistic Combat...

[Reagans Rascals]

Just a quick question that I've been twirling around in the old noggin...

When one relates accuracy and performance shooting, they usually refer to grouping size and the famed 3-5 rounds in the same hole...

I understand the basis of this for competition... however here's where my question comes in...

If it were a perfect world and one were able to shoot all rounds in the same hole... is this really the best possible tactic in engaging human targets?

In my opinion... would it not be better to spread the shots out across the chest, instead of stacking or touching rounds? It seems like hitting a target in 5-6 different parts of the chest would be vastly more effective than hitting the target 5 times in the same spot + - .5"

I am not talking combat accuracy or combat effective zones where its perfectly acceptable to hit a target under stress anywhere within an 8" circle....

I am talking about purposely hitting a target in different zones of the chest, not because of stress and body alarm reactions and breathing and so on... I mean specifically ON Purpose aiming at different regions of the chest to engage multiple organ systems instead of concentrating all fire in the same spot...

Not failure drills... where its 2 to the chest one to the head... or one to the chest and one to the head... I mean actually manipulating the rifle to engage different parts of the torso within say a 5 round burst

I know this is not practical, but I'd just like to hear opinions on the efficiency of engaging multiple areas of the chest instead of concentrating on only the center

[TriumphRat675]

Every anatomical structure that supports a good chance of incapacitating a hostile actor is concentrated in the head (brain), neck (spine & blood vessels) and upper-center chest (heart, spine, and major blood vessels), and most everything else in the torso (ribs, lungs, muscle, viscera) is to one degree or another not immediately necessary in order for a hostile actor to continue his hostile activity. So I don't understand why you would intentionally shooting someone in non-critical anatomy, even if you were able to do that under the stress of a life-or-death combat situation, which you are not.

[SteyrAUG]

If it were a perfect world and one were able to shoot all rounds in the same hole... is this really the best possible tactic in engaging human targets?

In my opinion... would it not be better to spread the shots out across the chest, instead of stacking or touching rounds? It seems like hitting a target in 5-6 different parts of the chest would be vastly more effective than hitting the target 5 times in the same spot + - .5"

I think you are best served by shooting the "vital areas" of the body until the threat is no longer a threat. Repeatable accuracy develops your ability to do this.

With the body responding to impact is is extremely unlikely you would be able to continuously engage the same impact area anyway so I wouldn't invest too much effort into solving this problem.

In a actual shooting situation it is going to be hard enough to just perform the simple task of shooting the "vital areas" of the body until the threat is no longer a threat. For a bonus score try and do the above without getting shot yourself.

And for sake of discussion, if you punch the average guy 3-5 times in the vital areas I don't care if they all went into the same button hole or are distributed throughout the vital cavity, he's probably done for the day.

[a0cake]

Iraq - 5 years back:

Our element was enroute to an LP/OP at night and came across a walled compound that was not on the map or imagery. A single individual came out with his arms behind his back. He was backlit so it was hard to see. Anyway, one of our guys ID'd a PPSh-41 in his hands behind his back. 5 or 6 of us engaged immediately at close range as he was bringing it up to fire. He was able to get a solid 20 rounds off before he went down (nobody caught one somehow). He lived for another 15 minutes or so with at least 40 M855 size holes in his upper chest and abdomen. None of us hit his heart (in our defense it was almost impossible to see).

Key takeaway: shoot for the vitals.

[CarlosDJackal]

...In my opinion... would it not be better to spread the shots out across the chest, instead of stacking or touching rounds? It seems like hitting a target in 5-6 different parts of the chest would be vastly more effective than hitting the target 5 times in the same spot + - .5"...

So in other words you are suggesting that people should consider shooting an attacker in the areas outside of their vital areas in order to "spread the wealth"? It seems to me you are ignoring the reality of why a fast moving projectile can be effective in stopping a determined attacker if it hits VITAL ORGANS and not so much when it misses these organs.

Kinda like taking the time to shoot an attacking aircraft in as many surfaces as possible while ignoring the vital fuel and engine parts? For some reason that A-10 that lost a huge chunk of its tail and wingtip over Iraq but still managed to land safely in Saudi Arabia came to mind.

As I see it, this "technique" has the following problems:

1) The vitals are called so because their destruction ensures the fastest incapacitation of an attacker due to either shock, blood loss, or shutdown of the nervous system.

2) The vitals also happen to be centrally located which makes it easy to damage or destroy multiple organs with a single shot.

3) Since the vitals are generally clumped together, if you were to miss one it does not necessarily mean you will miss the others.

4) Shooting a moving attacker's extremities require transitioning from one area to another and does not always present a decent sized target.

5) Under extreme duress, do you really think you will remember to go from one area to another especially when the attacker is also trying to kill you.

6) Wounding an attacker does not necessarily mean that he or she will stop trying to kill you as well.

7) I haven't heard very many cases where an attacker that received multiple peripheral hits was effectively stopped. Have you?

[Moltke]

Iraq - 5 years back:

Our element was enroute to an LP/OP at night and came across a walled compound that was not on the map or imagery. A single individual came out with his arms behind his back. He was backlit so it was hard to see. Anyway, one of our guys ID'd a PPSh-41 in his hands behind his back. 5 or 6 of us engaged immediately at close range as he was bringing it up to fire. He was able to get a solid 20 rounds off before he went down (nobody caught one somehow). He lived for another 15 minutes or so with at least 40 M855 size holes in his upper chest and abdomen. None of his hit his heart (in our defense it was almost impossible to see).

Key takeaway: shoot for the vitals.

Well.. That right there says it all.

[Reagans Rascals]

I'm not saying shoot non vital areas to "spread the wealth"... I am saying specifically shoot the vitals but not in the same spot repeatedly...

I think 5 shots spread through out the mid and upper chest/neck would provide greater stopping ability than 5 shots in the same spot

I am saying to involve more vital organ systems, not less

Kinda like taking the time to shoot an attacking aircraft in as many surfaces as possible while ignoring the vital fuel and engine parts? For some reason that A-10 that lost a huge chunk of its tail and wingtip over Iraq but still managed to land safely in Saudi Arabia came to mind.

A-10's are armored to withstand multiple 20mm hits, and to completely loose an engine off the air frame, as well as parts of the empennage and wings.... the human body is not

[SteyrAUG]

Iraq - 5 years back:

Our element was enroute to an LP/OP at night and came across a walled compound that was not on the map or imagery. A single individual came out with his arms behind his back. He was backlit so it was hard to see. Anyway, one of our guys ID'd a PPSh-41 in his hands behind his back. 5 or 6 of us engaged immediately at close range as he was bringing it up to fire. He was able to get a solid 20 rounds off before he went down (nobody caught one somehow). He lived for another 15 minutes or so with at least 40 M855 size holes in his upper chest and abdomen. None of his hit his heart (in our defense it was almost impossible to see).

Key takeaway: shoot for the vitals.

That is one of the dangerous habits I see in some modern training.

Typically in drills 2-3 rounds are fired (with the most being 5) per target before it is considered neutralized. Now obviously in LE practice they are conscious of not having overkill. I sometimes think people would prefer to see a couple dead cops on the news than see a bad guy shot 18 times.

Now there is of course a logical reason for 2-3 shot strings IF you are dealing with more than one threat.

The problem is that 2-3 shot or 5 shot string becomes a conditioned response as a result of practice and can create a very dangerous habit where a person stops shooting even though the target is still a threat.

The assumption of course is usually that in an actual shootout the 2-3 shot habit will be overcome by the stress of the situation. But that simply can't be counted on as a reliable factor.

To counter this potential conditioning "shooting until the threat is stopped" is stressed but it is hard for words and directions to take priority over muscle memory and practice.

I have seen the same problem in some "point fighters" in martial arts. They score a hit and wait for the point to be awarded. This makes for safe and precise practice but if you aren't careful it can become your default program. I have seen more than one talented fighter get into a real fight, score one really good hit and then stop and wait and then have to be shocked back into the game.

Sometimes they get away with the error, sometimes they don't.

Probably the most memorable instruction I ever heard was "it's easier to figure out when it is safe to stop shooting than it is to figure out that you haven't done enough."

[a0cake]

I'm not saying shoot non vital areas to "spread the wealth"... I am saying specifically shoot the vitals but not in the same spot repeatedly...

I think 5 shots spread through out the mid and upper chest/neck would provide greater stopping ability than 5 shots in the same spot

I am saying to involve more vital organ systems, not less

Honestly this whole discussion will never bridge the gap between theoretical and practical. With the amount of movement going on and various other factors, deliberately doing something like you're describing is unrealistic and in the realm of fantasy.

[SteyrAUG]

I'm not saying shoot non vital areas to "spread the wealth"... I am saying specifically shoot the vitals but not in the same spot repeatedly...

I think 5 shots spread through out the mid and upper chest/neck would provide greater stopping ability than 5 shots in the same spot

I am saying to involve more vital organ systems, not less

I understood what you were saying.

And if somebody was that precise, I strongly suspect that two rounds kissing makes bad guys behave as efficiently as two rounds in two distinct vital areas.

Again, I think the critical thing is to simply start shooting bad guys in the vitals until you don't have to shoot them any more.

Worrying about compounded trauma vs. distributed trauma is possibly counter productive.