Lets talk Marksmanship and Realistic Combat...

[a0cake]

Right, but that's not what happened. Everyone engaged continuously until the return fire stopped. It doesn't take long for a PPSh-41 to get 20 rounds off. There was never a lull in our shooting. Once he stopped firing, the threat was considered eliminated, and we moved into security and began trying to save his life, which lasted another 15 minutes. Fortunately, I haven't seen the mantra of "controlled pairs" being taught in quite a while, which is a good thing. I definitely agree with what you're saying.

That is one of the dangerous habits I see in some modern training.

Typically in drills 2-3 rounds are fired (with the most being 5) per target before it is considered neutralized. Now obviously in LE practice they are conscious of not having overkill. I sometimes think people would prefer to see a couple dead cops on the news than see a bad guy shot 18 times.

Now there is of course a logical reason for 2-3 shot strings IF you are dealing with more than one threat.

The problem is that 2-3 shot or 5 shot string becomes a conditioned response as a result of practice and can create a very dangerous habit where a person stops shooting even though the target is still a threat.

The assumption of course is usually that in an actual shootout the 2-3 shot habit will be overcome by the stress of the situation. But that simply can't be counted on as a reliable factor.

To counter this potential conditioning "shooting until the threat is stopped" is stressed but it is hard for words and directions to take priority over muscle memory and practice.

I have seen the same problem in some "point fighters" in martial arts. They score a hit and wait for the point to be awarded. This makes for safe and precise practice but if you aren't careful it can become your default program. I have seen more than one talented fighter get into a real fight, score one really good hit and then stop and wait and then have to be shocked back into the game.

Sometimes they get away with the error, sometimes they don't.

Probably the most memorable instruction I ever heard was "it's easier to figure out when it is safe to stop shooting than it is to figure out that you haven't done enough."

[Reagans Rascals]

That is one of the dangerous habits I see in some modern training.

Typically in drills 2-3 rounds are fired (with the most being 5) per target before it is considered neutralized. Now obviously in LE practice they are conscious of not having overkill. I sometimes think people would prefer to see a couple dead cops on the news than see a bad guy shot 18 times.

Now there is of course a logical reason for 2-3 shot strings IF you are dealing with more than one threat.

The problem is that 2-3 shot or 5 shot string becomes a conditioned response as a result of practice and can create a very dangerous habit where a person stops shooting even though the target is still a threat.

The assumption of course is usually that in an actual shootout the 2-3 shot habit will be overcome by the stress of the situation. But that simply can't be counted on as a reliable factor.

To counter this potential conditioning "shooting until the threat is stopped" is stressed but it is hard for words and directions to take priority over muscle memory and practice.

I have seen the same problem in some "point fighters" in martial arts. They score a hit and wait for the point to be awarded. This makes for safe and precise practice but if you aren't careful it can become your default program. I have seen more than one talented fighter get into a real fight, score one really good hit and then stop and wait and then have to be shocked back into the game.

Sometimes they get away with the error, sometimes they don't.

Probably the most memorable instruction I ever heard was "it's easier to figure out when it is safe to stop shooting than it is to figure out that you haven't done enough."

good write up... with good points

the only thing that comes to mind is possibly making some type of moving target that is on a rail system that comes towards the shooter... and its programmed to go down after a random number of hits.... say the shooter steps to the line and there are 4 to 5 or maybe eve 6 of these railed targets in addition to poppers.... the targets begin to come at him and each one has a different drop number... so some will go down with 1 others will go do with 7 or 8... forcing them to shoot until they drop and also focusing on accuracy, malfunctions and combat reloads

sort of an ultimate dynamic range...

[SteyrAUG]

Right, but that's not what happened. Everyone engaged continuously until the return fire stopped. It doesn't take long for a PPSh-41 to get 20 rounds off. There was never a lull in our shooting. Once he stopped firing, the threat was considered eliminated and we moved into security and began trying to save his life, which lasted another 15 minutes. Fortunately, I haven't seen the mantra of "controlled pairs" being taught in quite a while, which is a good thing. I definitely agree with what you're saying.

I understood that, and I'm glad you guys did it right. Your story just reminded me of some of the "modern training" I have seen and the potential bad habits derived from it.

You guys also had the advantage of an environment that tends to "get your head into the game" more efficiently than a LEO or individual getting into their first shooting situation.

[SteyrAUG]

good write up... with good points

the only thing that comes to mind is possibly making some type of moving target that is on a rail system that comes towards the shooter... and its programmed to go down after a random number of hits.... say the shooter steps to the line and there are 4 to 5 or maybe eve 6 of these railed targets in addition to poppers.... the targets begin to come at him and each one has a different drop number... so some will go down with 1 others will go do with 7 or 8... forcing them to shoot until they drop and also focusing on accuracy, malfunctions and combat reloads

sort of an ultimate dynamic range...

It is my opinion that the mindset adopted during training is more critical than the sophistication of the setup. I've seen some very dangerous individuals who shoot cans off of posts.

Unusual target scenarios and practicing with unfamiliar less practiced environments and presentations are of course extremely useful, but don't let them take priority over more important considerations.

At some point you need to determine "is this useful / worth my time."? a0cake brings up an excellent point about being able to "bridge the gap between theoretical and practical."

I've seen a lot of people engage in all kinds of "Ninja Seal" stuff, or more correctly what they imagine NS training to be, and while it may sound useful in theory it is usually beyond their current capacity to employ or extremely secondary to other more critical skills they could be refining.

[C-grunt]

Iraq - 5 years back:

Our element was enroute to an LP/OP at night and came across a walled compound that was not on the map or imagery. A single individual came out with his arms behind his back. He was backlit so it was hard to see. Anyway, one of our guys ID'd a PPSh-41 in his hands behind his back. 5 or 6 of us engaged immediately at close range as he was bringing it up to fire. He was able to get a solid 20 rounds off before he went down (nobody caught one somehow). He lived for another 15 minutes or so with at least 40 M855 size holes in his upper chest and abdomen. None of his hit his heart (in our defense it was almost impossible to see).

Key takeaway: shoot for the vitals.

I have seen stuff like this several times as well. One guy took 13 M855s through the chest/neck/head and was still alive for about 5 minutes. That was with two M16A4s at a distance of about 15-20 meters.

We even had another guy that was shot by an Abrams 7.62 coax directly through the chest. Entered just below his right shoulder blade and exited his left nipple. We found him 30 minutes after he was shot and he was still alive when we evaced him. Same firefight, the TC of the same Abrams engaged the driver of a VBIED who survived the explosion with his M4. Got got out of the blown up truck all crispy and smoldering and tried to walk away. He was shot about 15-20 times by the TCs M4 and was breathing for another few minutes.

The human body is incredibly resilient and fragile at the same time.

[sammage]

Here's one way to look at it...under stress your groups will probably open up a bit. Worrying about putting rounds through holes shouldn't be a worry. Target will be moving, you might be moving, so many variables.

[Moltke]

Aim for the center of the exposed portion of your target, shoot as many times as it takes to put the threat down, then search for more threats.

[Moose-Knuckle]

I grew up in the 80's so I learned all my shooting skillz from the action movies of that decade. At no time are you supposed to shoulder and aim a weapon. It's a hip blasting free for all. . .

[Reagans Rascals]

I grew up in the 80's so I learned all my shooting skillz from the action movies of that decade. At no time are you supposed to shoulder and aim a weapon. It's a hip blasting free for all. . .

bingo

When it doubt... Predator fire always works

[rob_s]

good write up... with good points

the only thing that comes to mind is possibly making some type of moving target that is on a rail system that comes towards the shooter... and its programmed to go down after a random number of hits.... say the shooter steps to the line and there are 4 to 5 or maybe eve 6 of these railed targets in addition to poppers.... the targets begin to come at him and each one has a different drop number... so some will go down with 1 others will go do with 7 or 8... forcing them to shoot until they drop and also focusing on accuracy, malfunctions and combat reloads

sort of an ultimate dynamic range...

I have an idea for how to do this, actually, and it would be at the instructor's discretion as to when the target would drop.