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Thread: "Fast" AR

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Noveske N4 14.5" midl-length N4. Heavier weight than a "pencil barrel" to keep the muzzle down, 14.5" mid-length is widely reported to have the least amount of pressure.
    Battlecomp 1.5. Battlecomp is clearly the new hotness in muzzle devices, and many here will attest to it's ability to reduce muzzle climb.
    Vltor A5 stock system. Another part that, if you read through the threads, is reported to reduce muzzle climb, or at least felt recoil.
    Geiselle SD 3G trigger. Appears to be pretty widely regarded as a "fast" trigger, and IIRC it was designed to be such.
    Eotech XPS. The Eotech fans all seem to use "I'm faster with it" as one reason they like it.
    12.0 (at least) Brazillian handguard. Brand immaterial, but one of the reasons we hear for longer tubes is "driving the gun", so while not a speed issue on an individual target, should come into play on multiples.
    Noveske FFL lower. The flared magwell seems to get billed as an aid in speed reloads.
    Magpul BAD lever. While having largely fallen out of favor, at one time at least it was billed as being faster on emergency reloads.
    Shouldn't be anything wrong with this setup. Looks pretty "high speed" to me.

    Now I'm not really what you would call a serious competitor that travels to all the competitions I can find. I do shoot a local carbine match Hootiewho puts on at a local range every month.
    I enjoy the competition against the other guys and the timer very much but, for me it is more about getting trigger time and practice in different scenarios that I otherwise would not have an opportunity to enjoy.
    It pushes me and my carbines abilities to the limit. Every time.
    Hootiewho does a terrific job at this. Never see the same stage setup twice, month to month.

    Usually shoot in the top ten out of 65-70 shooters if 4-5 pros don't show up.

    This is my setup and it works well for me. It is not what most would consider a serious high speed competition carbine. It is my training/competition carbine and what I will grab in a SD/HD situation. Works well for me.

    Daniel Defense 14.5" midlength
    AAC 51T Brakeout Comp
    10" Centurion Rail
    BCM FA BCG
    BCM Mod 4 Charging Handle
    LMT Lower with Std Milspec Receiver Extension, H-Buffer and Springco Blue Spring.
    Currently has a ACT Trigger installed. Not in pic
    Aimpoint M4s in a Bobro mount




    No longer have the BAD Lever in the pic. I did find that it increased my reload speed. However, it would not work on one of my lowers......so, I'll have them on none.

    I can't say that I recognize or notice recoil in a 5.56 any longer as long as the recoil impulse is into a good shoulder purchase. What I do notice is the muzzle climb. Especially on multiple targets.

    For comparison, I own a BCM 14.5" midlength MOE with the A2X bird cage, and the difference between these two carbines is like night and day as far as muzzle climb, and hence speed on multiples goes. I attribute it mostly to the AAC brake and the overall weight of the rifle.


    The AAC brake/comp does a terrific job.....but it is loud as hell.
    Last edited by Scoby; 04-24-12 at 15:31.
    Scoby


    “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”Thomas Jefferson, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in “On Crimes and Punishment”, 1764

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    So in reading the posts here it appears that many of the parts in my original list are compromises, largely for weight/size other other criteria that are deemed more "combat-y" (sorry, more quotes).

    What, then, would be the order from fastest to slowest?

    Barrel: 18" rifle-gas, 14.5" mid-length gas, 16" carbine gas? (where would the SR15 barrel fit in there?)
    Muzzle: Surefire Brake, Battlecomp, A2?
    Stock: Rifle (A1?), A5, M4?


    There does, at least, appear to be some amount of carryover in the trigger, so I'm not sure if there's a sliding scale for that so much as a very light single-stage being seen as the fastest and the GI being slowest?

    Handguard, too, seems to be the same, or the same concept, regardless of application. Game guns or fighting guns, the trend is towards longer Brazilian handguards.

    In terms of the optic, would the sequence be something like ACOG, Aimpoint, Eotech? (1.x-Y notwithstanding)


    Anyone want to speculate on which would be softer shooting (and hopefully therefore faster, since I'm not sure of any other benefits of softer shooting), a KAC SR15 with Triple Tap and A5 or the same lower with a 14.5" mid-length and Battlecomp?
    Again, the course design would dictate the fastest. For a short course not exceeding 50 yards, I'd venture that the 14.5" middy with the Surefire brake, A5 and Aimpoint or Eotech would be the fastest (though I'd choose the BC over the Surefire personally). For a course mixing close range out to 600, the 18" with A1 and ACOG would be fastest (though I'd go for a TR24 over the ACOG for this type of work). I'd go with the Troy Alpha on any of them, but a good CF tube would be lighter & faster.

    My personal choices have compromises for durability, reliability and precision. My short course gun is a Noveske/BCM with a pinned 1.5 BC on a 14.5" pencil barrel. Trigger is a SSA and optic is Aimpoint Micro. I don't have the A5 on it because I'm not sure it's the best choice reliability wise for the middy.

    My long course gun is an 18" Noveske Rogue Hunter with intermediate gas, A5 with E-Mod, S3G trigger, AAC two chamber comp (compromise for suppression), PA Micro in a 1:00 mount for close work and a Bushnell Elite 6500 2.5-16 tactical in a Larue mount for long shots. Ths Elite is a compromise in that it's overkill for matches, but I wanted the extra resolution capability for threats and hunting. Cold bore head shots at 300 are chip shots with this setup.

    If I were setting up pure competition guns with no other purpose, I'd probably opt for an AXTS AX556 Ambi lower and 16" pencil barrel with a Eotech and Surefire brake for short course work and an 18" CTR-02 with a TR24 for long courses.

    Last edited by glocktogo; 04-24-12 at 11:44.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    The 400 Agg I use (since there are apparently 400 different versions): All start from the standing alert, magazine of 5 on the gun, target is a B8, only shots within the 8 ring count for score, all strings of fire are 10 shots (5, reload, 5).
    100 meters: Standing to prone, 60 seconds.
    75 meters: Standing to sitting, 60 seconds.
    50 meters: Standing to kneeling, 60 seconds.
    25 meters: Standing, 30 seconds.
    370 and above; you are a pretty good fundamental shooter.


    Thanks for this. Always looking for something different.
    Scoby


    “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”Thomas Jefferson, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in “On Crimes and Punishment”, 1764

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    In terms of the optic, would the sequence be something like ACOG, Aimpoint, Eotech? (1.x-Y notwithstanding)
    Actually, the Leupold Prismatic is considered the way to go for 3-gun outside the low powered variables and dedicated 2-optic rigs.
    They outperform Aimpoints and EoTechs at that game in the conditions found in the game.

    I think the discussion came up not too long ago, and I'm pretty sure that Kelly Neal (winner of the Limited division in a recent big 3-gun match) talked a bit about it.

    ETA, found it: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=102675
    Jack Leuba
    Director, Military and Government Sales
    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    Actually, the Leupold Prismatic is considered the way to go for 3-gun outside the low powered variables and dedicated 2-optic rigs.
    They outperform Aimpoints and EoTechs at that game in the conditions found in the game.

    I think the discussion came up not too long ago, and I'm pretty sure that Kelly Neal (winner of the Limited division in a recent big 3-gun match) talked a bit about it.

    ETA, found it: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=102675
    I wonder if the various shortcomings of the Prismatic make it non-tactical-y...

    Might see if I can get Leupold to send me one.

  6. #46
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    I am not a competition shooter but I do a lot of competition style shooting and feel that I am fairly proficient with a carbine. This is my take and what I did when I decided to create one rifle that I considered to be a "3 gun" or "competition" type build. I went with a concept that I thought would pretty effectively cover most of the bases so to speak. This is what I went with....

    Lower
    - Stripped Noveske GenII Flared Forged Lower (FFL) 5.56
    - Colt lower parts
    - Geissele S3G trigger (curved face)
    - LMT ambidextrous safety selector
    - Noveske QD end plate
    - Vltor A5 receiver extension kit
    - Vltor IMOD stock
    - Magpul MOE + rubberized grip
    - Magpul Batter Assist Device (BAD Lever)
    - DSG Arms FDE mags w/ Magpul ranger plates.

    Upper
    - Noveske LW profile 16" SS midlength barrel
    - BattleComp 1.0 (clocked @ 1:30)
    - VTAC 13.0 Extreme Battle Rail
    - VTAC QD sling attachment
    - Noveske upper receiver
    - EOTech Extreme EXPS 3.0
    - Colt bolt carrier group
    - BCM / Vltor Gunfighter charging handle with modified PRI combat latch
    - LMT front and rear sights
    - Streamlight TLR1s
    - Blue Force Gear VCAS sling

    Weight - As configured in the photo (dry weight, minus the mag) is 8lbs 8 ozs.









    I have since tried a SJC Titan and just recently a Rolling Thunder on the rifle and quite honestly I will be returning the BC back onto the rifle. I really wanted to love the Titan but under testing in various situations the Titan and the RT did not provide any greater benefits for their trade-offs. I am also about to go to a folding back up iron and test some low power variables on the rifle.

    All in all this rifle is amazing. I have shot many many "high end" competition rifles and this set up is truly awesome. Some fine tuning here and there and I think the rifle and this combination would make any 3 gunner proud.

    Some of the rifle in action.
    Test fire of various loads for groups @ 100yds w/ EOtech
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khEh0XnmstQ

    Trigger testing
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pac1BcRc8dg

    Half and Half with rifle
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XjNGD18pmQ

  7. #47
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    Why don't you just check out what all the guys who beat you at matches are shooting?

    They're all the same. It's a rifle gas with a reduced mass BCG, A1 or A2 stock, a scary-light trigger, a big ass brake and either one magnified optic or a magnified optic and a little red-dot. And usually reloads just hot enough to cycle the gun.

    Yes, there are guys out there who are damn good shooters who also run what I call "toy guns". They're the same guys dissecting the rules and air-gunning every course of fire. They're there to win. Period. Get over it.

    If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by samuse View Post
    Why don't you just check out what all the guys who beat you at matches are shooting?
    'round here it's pretty hard to find them. And I don't think the guys that propose a whole lot of new hotness would like what they saw either.

    There isn't much around these parts in the way of rifle/3-gun/carbine matches. I ran one for 7 years, and I think it's still running in my absence.

    But it appears from most of the responses here that there are two kinds of "fast", there's fast for the games, and fast for the tacticians. I'm still kind of curious as to the difference.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    'round here it's pretty hard to find them. And I don't think the guys that propose a whole lot of new hotness would like what they saw either.

    There isn't much around these parts in the way of rifle/3-gun/carbine matches. I ran one for 7 years, and I think it's still running in my absence.

    But it appears from most of the responses here that there are two kinds of "fast", there's fast for the games, and fast for the tacticians. I'm still kind of curious as to the difference.
    Rob, I'm sure in the vast multitude more classes you've taken than me, you've seen some pretty good shooters. In my experience with classes and informal training, the "tacticians" (haha, quotes) typically are running stock guns with maybe a tuned up trigger and they're still smoking everybody. Those guys flat out have skill.

    The gear homos are just that.

    The match players have figured out what works best in a match environment, but it usually revolves around tweaking the gun to be good at one thing: gaming. Low mass buffers, light springs, underpowered ammo. That's all great in a game environment when you have a toolbox and a spare rifle, and you don't get killed if your rifle chokes.

    Think of it this way: Is a Formula 1 car fast? Is a drag car fast? They're both fast, but in different ways.

    The Formula 1 car would get smoked on the drag strip and the drag car would hit the wall in the first curve of the Formula 1 track.

    I think the new hotness in rifles can be compared to the SUV. It's a Sport Utility rifle. It's got mostly mil-grade parts to ensure that it functions, but it's also got some sport features (Battlecomp, buffer, etc) that make it more competitive in the sport arena. At the end of the day, though, it's the driver that makes the difference.

    One more car analogy: You could put a professional race car driver in a street legal Corvette and me in his fully-tuned race car. He's still going to beat me even though I have the better performing car because he knows how to operate/manipulate any car better/faster.
    Semper Paratus Certified AR15 Armorer

  10. #50
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    So what are we gaining and what are we conceding in the rifle that I proposed?

    some braking but not maximum possible in order to reduce side blast?
    some weight but not so much that it's too heavy to carry?
    enough length to be legal but not so much that it's cumbersome?
    better buffering than the carbine stock but not as much as the rifle in favor of adjustability and reduced overall length?

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