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Thread: "Fast" AR

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Additionally, would this setup, that I proposed earlier, have any neagatives that might make it considered not to be tactically sufficient?
    Battlecomp 1.5. Battlecomp is clearly the new hotness in muzzle devices, and many here will attest to it's ability to reduce muzzle climb.
    I would say this is a detriment after reading the AAR from the Redback 1 High Risk Vehicle Tactics course. Guys inside vehicles (both shooters and the guy next to the shooter) were less than pleased with the flame and concussion.

    http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=103993

  2. #72
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    Something that is often lost on the "tactical" community is that competition guns are not just built out of parts. They are tuned. Tactical guys are always talking about some other non competitor who spent a bunch of money and cant get there "go fast" gun to run. Most tactical guys would be amazed to go to a compition full of 1911 widebodies and the rifle equivilent and see just how few guns go down. The reason is that the people who actually runs these hard are almost always competent in their upkeeping. Much of the tuning places the gun close to the line on reliability but the competence of the competitor determines the reliability. For people who dont want to deal with that buy a known quility idiot-proof gun.

    I have some experience in competition pistols but am not really a rifle guy so this comment is more broad. The jp carrier and rifle gas seem to be the ticket, but they are just "parts". I spend alot of time on BEforum and such and much of the speed comes from adjusting gas flow to be as little as possible and still run.

    I dont know if I was clear or not but I tried.
    You can never make anyting idiot-proof, whenever you get close they just build a better idiot.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Additionally, would this setup, that I proposed earlier, have any neagatives that might make it considered not to be tactically sufficient? Any place where I can further push the envelope but still meet the tactical criteria?

    Noveske N4 14.5" midl-length N4. Heavier weight than a "pencil barrel" to keep the muzzle down, 14.5" mid-length is widely reported to have the least amount of pressure.
    Battlecomp 1.5. Battlecomp is clearly the new hotness in muzzle devices, and many here will attest to it's ability to reduce muzzle climb.
    Vltor A5 stock system. Another part that, if you read through the threads, is reported to reduce muzzle climb, or at least felt recoil.
    Geiselle SD 3G trigger. Appears to be pretty widely regarded as a "fast" trigger, and IIRC it was designed to be such.
    Eotech XPS. The Eotech fans all seem to use "I'm faster with it" as one reason they like it.
    12.0 (at least) Brazillian handguard. Brand immaterial, but one of the reasons we hear for longer tubes is "driving the gun", so while not a speed issue on an individual target, should come into play on multiples.
    Noveske FFL lower. The flared magwell seems to get billed as an aid in speed reloads.
    Magpul BAD lever. While having largely fallen out of favor, at one time at least it was billed as being faster on emergency reloads.



    I'd also like to know what might be considered the "slow" alternatives, and if I would gain anything else, like reliability and durability, by going with them. Would the below be considered to be slow enough? Should the barrel maybe go to a 11.5" and the handguard to an M4 or MOE with stock FSB? Basically, a stock Colt 6933 with ACOG? Ideally I think the goal here would be to avoid NFA items though.

    Colt 16" A1-profile barrel with carbine-length gas.
    A2 Flash hider.
    M4 stock system.
    GI trigger.
    Trijicon TA33 ACOG.
    7.0 or 9.0 DD M4 handguard.
    Stock Colt lower.
    hhhmmmmm ...... Eotech, 13" tube, A5 (new lower, trying it out), Noveske FFL, Middy gas, and I have a SSA not a SD 3G but it sounds A LOT like my carbine.

    My 3 gun rifle is a 18" rifle med weight SS 1:8 bbl with a 15" tube , but that one has a 1.5 BC . I would have chosen a more effective comp but the BC is new IDPA multi gun legal and I had it laying around after I tried it on my carbine and did not like it in that application .
    Last edited by Shawn.L; 04-26-12 at 21:14.

  4. #74
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    This thread is very interesting for me because I am considering changing my rifle, again. I followed the gamer herd to an 18" rifle system. I have to admit, it is a soft shooter than my 14.5 middy. Its not far from my SR15, but I've since sold the KAC upper and dropped the 18" rifle system on the lower. It's an WOA barrel, low pro gas block, JP Benny Cooley break MUR upper and tactical looking Centurion 12" quad rail. On top, I have a Vortex PST 1-4. Personal thoughts, it's too heavy.

    I just completed the Texas MultiGun Championship. I spent a lot of time watching the sponsored shooters and noticed their setups. They were all over the board different. I didn't notice any BC's being used. The JP break appeared to dominate, along with SS barrels. But the length of barrel was no less than 16". Most everyone used some form of tubular rail. Leading me to believe quad rails are too tactical and too heavy. If there were quads in use, I didn't see them.

    Most of the stages had rifle shots out to 75-85 yards. One stage had range out to 500, and there were only 4 targets at that range. So, to think about what is a fast rifle, I am now thinking being able to drive the rifle from target to target, being able to transition from pistol/shotty to rifle, barreling your rifle to draw shotty and running through a stage makes a rifle feel faster in your hands. Why do you need an 18" rifle?

    The herd buzz said an 18" rifle system was softer shooting, more accurate long range, higher velocity, harder hitting, more stable. All things that may be true, but not necessary based on my most recent experience. My setup felt slow, heavy and even cumbersome to move with, but it did shoot flat, hit hard and was accurate long range.

    On my mind is a 16" middy system. After attending the LaRue sponsored event, my perfect rifle could be a 16" PredatOBR. I am also considering replacing my Centurion rail with either the Lancer or the sexy looking Noveske NSR. I may even swap my upper for a 16" Noveske, with the NSR - when available. In short, I am looking to make my game gun feel more mobile, which I hope equals faster. For tactical use, I have a 12.5" SBR.
    Here in America we are descended in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. ~Dwight D. Eisenhower, address, Columbia University, 31 May 1954

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by threeheadeddog View Post
    Something that is often lost on the "tactical" community is that competition guns are not just built out of parts. They are tuned. Tactical guys are always talking about some other non competitor who spent a bunch of money and cant get there "go fast" gun to run. Most tactical guys would be amazed to go to a compition full of 1911 widebodies and the rifle equivilent and see just how few guns go down. The reason is that the people who actually runs these hard are almost always competent in their upkeeping. Much of the tuning places the gun close to the line on reliability but the competence of the competitor determines the reliability. For people who dont want to deal with that buy a known quility idiot-proof gun.

    I have some experience in competition pistols but am not really a rifle guy so this comment is more broad. The jp carrier and rifle gas seem to be the ticket, but they are just "parts". I spend alot of time on BEforum and such and much of the speed comes from adjusting gas flow to be as little as possible and still run.

    I dont know if I was clear or not but I tried.
    I think that most of us are easily distracted by the high number of shooters we see have guns go down at local level USPSA matches, but lose track of the fact that in a field of 60 shooters one or two failures really stand out.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by glocktogo View Post
    Your 1st example would be good tactically with the exception of the BAD lever.
    Why? Because it's out of favor with the tactical community?

    Since an argument is frequently made for it that it speeds emergency reloads and/or malfunction clearance, it would seem to be a go-faster part, at least in theory.

    and yes, I left out the 45* safety. I should have included that.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by amac View Post
    I am also considering replacing my Centurion rail with either the Lancer or the sexy looking Noveske NSR.
    I have one of these on a gun. Everyone that sees it immediately calls the gun a "gamer gun", so it must be a gamer part, right?

  8. #78
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    A few more thoughts.

    Rob, I would say that your set ups above would do well as a competition rifle and your top rifle mirrors my dedicated set up pretty darn close but again I will mention that I am not a competition shooter, but (out)shoot with them often enough.

    For myself on a true critical use rifle, I am not that comfortable or completely sold with the durability of many of the minimalist tubes on the market that I have used but I have yet to try a few of the newest designs however. I am sure with design development my mind will change. For my own personal feelings a critical use rifle will have a fixed FSB despite the arguments over durability of modern optics, etc, etc...

    I have both an 18" intermediate length Noveske SS SPR barrel and a 16" midlength SS Noveske LW profile barrel. I personally prefer the 16" mid for weight and length savings and it is damn accurate enough to do what I need it to do out past competition distances. I really wouldn't have too much of an issue with a 14.5 either, other than the fact that I wanted the LW profile of the 16".

    I have no concerns with the Vltor A5 on a critical use rifle, but I am not sold that I gained any benefit on performance.

    EOTech EXPS, well I am an EOTech fan. I am of the camp that loves the ret. Use the 65 MOA ring like a big dot up close, small 1 MOA dot for precision, 6 oclock hash for precision at a specific close distance. Use it for ranging and for engaging moving targets at various distances & speeds. Durability has been good in the 553's and no issues that I have noted in the XPS line ups.

    After running the MBK, Titan and Rolling Thunder, I really do prefer the BC, go figure? I also find that it is the only acceptable device for critical use.

    BAD lever. Been running them for years, even on all of my critical use rifles. On a gaming gun, I can't see how it is not a clear advantage? There is no denying that even a highly proficient shooter can shave at least a couple tenths on reloads. If it works or is reliable on a rifle, it flat out works. The device really seems to have lost its flavor for some reason. No big deal as I was running them before they ever became the device du jour on the market or before they even hit the commercial market period.

    As far as an ambi-lever goes, they go on almost all of my carbines.

    On a critical use rifle the S3G is a no go IMO, too darn light. An SSA would be acceptable, but again as I always say a nice USGI is just as capable.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Why? Because it's out of favor with the tactical community?

    Since an argument is frequently made for it that it speeds emergency reloads and/or malfunction clearance, it would seem to be a go-faster part, at least in theory.

    and yes, I left out the 45* safety. I should have included that.
    Pretty much. I use them and have no issues. Others experiences may vary. To each their own.

  10. #80
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    I have not shot this is exact rifle. But one close to it. I have 14.5 BCM with a BC,NGA X-7,ETA KAC SR15 w/Vltor A5 and a Griffin comp. It is a Seekins Precision and one smoothest fasting shooting I have shot. P.E. Kelley finished in the top in the texas multigun last weekend with this rifle. It seems that the 18" rifle gas system is the way to go for the 3-Gun gamer. P.E. Kelley runs a chip mccormick trigger rather the Geislle.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQTOH...ature=youtu.be
    Last edited by archad; 04-27-12 at 21:47. Reason: KAC

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