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Thread: First AR

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by a0cake View Post
    Are you guys not familiar with the operating characteristics of an AR-15? Listen: I'm being ambiguous intentionally. Please find the underlying meaning.

    It's a properly constructed AR-15 that performs like all other properly constructed AR-15's perform as a result of their inherent properties.

    Do you understand why I'm using this language?

    Think about how you would respond if somebody asked you: what are the differences in performance between a 16'' Daniel Defense carbine and a 16'' BCM carbine. It would be stupid and unhelpful to give specific details about what you've done with each particular product because, for all intents and purposes, you know that both offerings are essentially equal, right?

    So when we discount Spike's business practices and overall crap behavior and objectively examine their products based on their construction alone, we're left at the same point.
    I follow you and as I have said many times on here, I would take a ST over a RRA, BM, OLY, DPMS, etc!

    As stated in my first post, I don't care if the OP buys a ST gun or not, I just hope that he takes the money saved and applies it to a training class.



    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 04-26-12 at 14:03.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    I follow you and as I have said many times on here, I would take a ST over a RRA, BM, OLY, DPMS, etc!

    As stated in my first post, I don't care if the OP buys a ST gun or not, I just hope that he takes the money saved and applies it to a training class.



    C4
    Yeah I recognize this brother. Not criticizing you at all. It's actually a pretty admirable thing for a dealer who doesn't sell Spikes products to be able to dis-attach from the controversy emotionally and financially and arrive at the correct conclusion based on facts. I'm all for staying away from Spikes...I just think (like I believe you do also), that we should do so for reasons that are based on reality.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by a0cake View Post
    Do you understand why I'm using this language?
    No, honestly, I only understand facts.

    So once upon a time my first AR was an RRA. Then I read lots of facts and found out what a pile of shit was in my possession. I emailed Grant and said "Grant, my gun sucks. What can I do to make it suck less?"

    Then he sold me a bunch of parts.

    Then I read more facts.

    Then I called Grant again and said, "Grant, I want 2 Colt 6920's to make up for the pile of shit I own".

    Then Grant delivered.

    Then I was free build customized AR's utilizing all the sexy parts in the industry along with gallons of Unicorn Piss to clean them with.

    The moral of the story is: I would never advise anyone to buy a shit-AR with their own money, when something "less questionable" is available in nearly the same price range.
    Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Owner of MI-TAC, LLC .

    @MichiganTactical

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave L. View Post
    No, honestly, I only understand facts.

    So once upon a time my first AR was an RRA. Then I read lots of facts and found out what a pile of shit was in my possession. I emailed Grant and said "Grant, my gun sucks. What can I do to make it suck less?"

    Then he sold me a bunch of parts.

    Then I read more facts.

    Then I called Grant again and said, "Grant, I want 2 Colt 6920's to make up for the pile of shit I own".

    Then Grant delivered.

    Then I was free build customized AR's utilizing all the sexy parts in the industry along with gallons of Unicorn Piss to clean them with.

    The moral of the story is: I would never advise anyone to buy a shit-AR with their own money, when something "less questionable" is available in nearly the same price range.
    I can tell you're emotionally attached to this discussion. It is either clouding your ability to look at the facts or you are mentally unequipped to grasp what's going on here. So I'll let it go because this is going nowhere. The last thing I'll do is reiterate the two points I've been making all along:

    -Spikes has a history of less than honorable business practices and overall "jackassery." Since there are other choices of equal quality abundantly available, common sense says go that route and stay away from ST.

    - The above statement does not change the fact that ST rifles themselves are carefully constructed of the proper materials. They have also released 3rd party, independent testing to verify their claims, which is something few companies have done. The rifles are built to the same high standards as the other companies we know and love.

    Point 1 doesn't cancel out point 2 and vice-versa. A reasonable person, in my view, looks at these facts and determines to buy a BCM, DD, Colt, etc. etc. etc. instead of a Spikes. An UNREASONABLE person, however, is overcome by their emotional reaction to Point 1 and simply chooses to ignore Point 2.
    Last edited by a0cake; 04-26-12 at 14:26.

  5. #35
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    I could care less about Spike's, the spider or whatever. Here are my issues.

    1. Raising prices during the first great Obama scare.

    2. Making claims about HP/MPI, etc... and then offering no proof for months until they finally released it on TOS. The stuff that was released in my opinion and that of others was "dubious".

    3. Their silly marketing techniques.

    Now having said. They are approved for use by the Florida Highway Patrol and they were in fact subjected to some pretty good testing standards. I will however, stick with Colt, BCM and others who have a solid proven track record.



    Owner/Instructor at Semper Paratus Arms

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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by a0cake View Post
    I can tell you're emotionally attached to this discussion. It is either clouding your ability to look at the facts or you are mentally unequipped to grasp what's going on here. So I'll let it go. The last thing I'll do is reiterate the two points I've been making all along:

    -Spikes has a history of less than honorable business practices and overall "jackassery." Since there are other choices of equal quality abundantly available, common sense says go that route and stay away from ST.

    - The above statement does not change the fact that ST rifles themselves are carefully constructed of the proper materials. They have also released 3rd party, independent testing to verify their claims, which is something few companies have done. The rifles are built to the same high standards as the other companies we know and love.

    Point 1 doesn't cancel out point 2 and vice-versa. A reasonable person, in my view, looks at these facts and determines to buy a BCM, DD, Colt, etc. etc. etc. instead of a Spikes. An UNREASONABLE person, however, is overcome by their emotional reaction to Point 1 and simply chooses to ignore Point 2.
    No emotions.

    No argument with your fist point. Those are the facts. It should however, make people skeptical for the lifetime of the company.

    So they are, "carefully constructed of the proper materials" as you state; was this a single batch test or do they have tests done for every batch of parts they have built and sell?

    My point is, why trust them?
    Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Owner of MI-TAC, LLC .

    @MichiganTactical

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave L. View Post
    No emotions.

    No argument with your fist point. Those are the facts. It should however, make people skeptical for the lifetime of the company.

    So they are, "carefully constructed of the proper materials" as you state; was this a single batch test or do they have tests done for every batch of parts they have built and sell?

    My point is, why trust them?
    Alright now we're getting somewhere (finding common ground), so I'll play. Why trust them in regard to their product claims (HPT/MPI etc) is a fair question. They were probably less than truthful about the price hike after the election. Got it. But do you really think that today, right now, they're marking their bolts MPI/HPT without actually doing it? Of course none of us can say whether they are or aren't (we can't say for certain with many other companies either), but I think the more reasonable and rational conclusion to reach is that they are doing the testing, especially given that they were vetted and approved for LE use. So, unless we are to buy into the conspiracy / belief that Spikes is just straight up lying about their products, point 2 is still valid.

    And after all this BS, the correct answer is STILL Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, Noveske, etc. etc. etc.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by PalmettoPrecision View Post
    Do some research on military requirements for an M4C. ST's QC is not up to par with other top tier manufacturers, but this does not mean they don't meet military specifications.
    I never said ST's QC was up to par!

  9. #39
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    Honestly, I couldn't care less about a logo on the gun. I just want something that is reliable and accurate. Obviously I'd love to be able to spend a ton of money on the best gun, but I can't.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by a0cake View Post
    And after all this BS, the correct answer is STILL Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, Noveske, etc. etc. etc.
    We're on the same page, but I don't get back in a relationship with a woman who cheated on me either.
    Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Owner of MI-TAC, LLC .

    @MichiganTactical

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