Perfecting the Recce concept: The case for .308/7.62

[wild_wild_wes]

How much glass is too much for this class of weapon?

I'm going to do a 16" .308, and was going to use the same optic as geohans, but am also considering a scope in the 5-20X range.

[sinister]

Magnification is really a function of mission requirement, cost, weight, and bulk.

The Marines did some excellent research and produced an "X-File" (Experimentation report) based on exercises they conducted at Quantico and in Guam. They used the Leupold TS-30A2, ACOGs, and some other scopes and found that with the variables (2.5-8X, 3-9X) at the top end they could positively identify bad guys or the presence of small arms farther away and faster than guys with minimal magnification (like with an ACOG or Short Dot).

Going bigger than a 2-8X or 3-9X (typically a Leupold or example Nightforce 2-10X32) and you start talking weight issues and heading into sniper (vice sharpshooter) role. Same gear, different role, and the temptation for commanders to pluck guys and fire teams away and put them where they kinda-sorta fit, i.e. tasking maneuver rifle squads into specific hunter-killer roles. Not quite patrolling, and not quite in a support element role.

9 or 10X will get you to 1,000, while a 3-20 can give you precision aiming for smaller targets likje groundhogs to prairie dogs. A 10X may have pretty fat/thick crosshairs for your long-distance engagements.

[wild_wild_wes]

Is a 1-6X a good fit for the DM role then? Or is 6 not enough top-end magnification?

[Ironman8]

Is a 1-6X a good fit for the DM role then? Or is 6 not enough top-end magnification?

Just to throw another option out there, what about a 2.5-10 with offset irons? Or if the cost isn't a concern, offset micro?

Sinister, any opinions on the above?

[sinister]

A 1-8X (like the Leupold CQBSS) would be nice, but way pricey.

My personal choice on a 22-inch 10T is a Leupold 3.5-10X M3LR, and on the 16-inch the Leupold TS-30A2 (3-9X). Both are first focal plane and have quick elevation turrets (or you can use your holdoffs).

I think Barry Dueck's offset irons are a solid and sturdy (again pricey) option for close-in iron sight requirement while giving you some magnification for distance and positive ID. Another sturdy, fast, and reasonable option is the original JP sight:



An offset micro would be nice if your wallet or unit budget can swing it. The problem with a micro or other panoramic red dot (besides batteries, which are becoming less of a problem with modern circuitry) is rain, snow, dust, or mud on the glass (especially towards dusk).

[RamadiDoorkicker]

After a tour in Ramadi as a SDM in a forward infantry unit, I have a few "opinions" on the RECCE rifle's needs and need-not's.

1. The need for a RECCE specific rifle is huge. I was forced to carry my M4 with combat loadout AND an M21 with loadout because the optic selection on the M21 was limited to the optics traditionally used by our sniper section. It was virtually impossible to acquire a target under 150 meters in the city with a high magnification scope. Thus forcing me to carry the M4 with the M21 slung. All this did was get hung up on debri and smack the back of my legs when moving under contact.

2. The caliber of the rifle is dependent on the environment you will be performing you missions in. A rifle of higher caliber is almost required in an area such as Afghanistan where common engagement distances push well beyond the maximum effective range for 5.56 rifles. However, the same isn't true in environments that are primarily urban (Iraq) or wooded that drastically limit the range of your typical engagements which is dictated by the distance you can effectively set in to overwatch your manuevering element.

3. Magazine capacity is also a critical factor. I want that extra ten rounds when I can get it. Combat is messy. You aren't going to be able to keep an accurate round count when yelling commands to your squad, contact descriptions, and answering the company commander that won't stay off the radio. If I can stay in the fight 33% longer before being forced to reload, I will take it. Especially when your typical reaction to contact finds you simply laying down a barrage of suppressive fire to gain superiority before reorganizing and assaulting thru the objective.


End Opinion: there is not one caliber better than the other. It is mission dependent. This is why most of our units in SOCOM have several different gear loadouts for their different missions and no 2 operators choose the same loadout for the same mission!

[RHINOWSO]

Like everything, it depends. Caliber, barrel length, scope, irons, trigger, ammuniton, etc, etc...

[ALCOAR]

Some don't like windows, however I personally enjoy them on precision ARs...where one actually looks to see how many rounds left, or how many rounds have been shot into a group or string.

This will certainly bridge the gap for those who are reluctant to only sport 20rds as well.

I really am looking forward to these mags, and I have confidence we will see these mags in the future in at least pro gun States.

[RHINOWSO]

Like the 25rds PMAGS... Need to get a rifle that takes 308 PMAGs when this madness hopefully dies down...

[Jake'sDad]

Some don't like windows, however I personally enjoy them on precision ARs...where one actually looks to see how many rounds left, or how many rounds have been shot into a group or string.

This will certainly bridge the gap for those who are reluctant to only sport 20rds as well.

I really am looking forward to these mags, and I have confidence we will see these mags in the future in at least pro gun States.

I sure hope so.

I'll be jumping on some as soon as I see any, even if it's at one of the scalpers.