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Thread: Do you know the definition of quality?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suwannee Tim View Post
    A little approximate calculation if you will permit me: the probability of a law abiding citizen getting into a gunfight, 1/1,000, the probability he will have or be able to get his AR before the fight is over, 1/10, the probability his Colt will fail, costing him his life, 1/10,000 and the probability his Bushie will fail costing him his life, 1/1000. So the probability your Colt will fail and cost you your life, 1/10,000,000 or 0.0000001, the probability your Bushie will fail you and cost you your life, 1/1,000,000 or 0.000001. I do not worry much about such low probability events.

    Now consider the commonly given advice, "buy a Colt and shoot the heck out of it." I submit a Colt with 5,000 rounds down the pipe is less reliable than the Bushie with 500 rounds given that there are no grave flaws in the Bushie and the grave flaws seem to be unusual and in the distant past, at least in my limited experience.

    I expect many years pass and no law abiding civilian and no police officer looses his life because his AR failed him. There is not a day that goes by that a civillian does not loose his life to tire failure nor a week that goes by that a cop does not loose his life to tire failure. This is the kind of thing I worry about.

    The bold part is KEY! We have fixed more BM's (as an example) than you have EVER seen. We seel them fail in training classes all the time. Could one of those failures been when their life was on the line? Yep.

    I have to ask is why risk it by buying a weapon that is neither built right or is using parts that follow a standard???



    C4

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
    I had three different Kimbers that worked fine when I sold them, and each had passed the 500 round break-in.

    I now have MIM free 1911's: Baer (UTC), Brown (Special Forces), Dan Wesson (Valor).

    FYI: Colt reportedly has four MIM parts in their 1911's, so if anyone is resolved to only use the "best" to defend themself and theirs...
    I love the "500rd break in" thing. When I built my FIRST 1911 (via the Vickers 1911 pistolsmith class), the very first round went BANG! Followed by mag after mag.

    Point is that if your 1911 is not running in the first 500rds, it wasn't built right to begin with.


    C4

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by MK18Pilot View Post
    Couldn't have said it better...

    This guy should be appointed the M4C Mil-Spec SME.



    While not technically right, it was an accurate definition. Grant, are you taking notes?



    A-****ing-men!
    Grant doesn't need to take notes as he already knows.



    C4

  4. #94
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    Why buy an F350 to haul a twin sized mattress when an F150 will do?
    Your analogy is flawed for a number of reasons.

    Not one person on earth would be justified in purchasing a truck to specifically haul one twin mattress. To purchase a $20k truck solely to transport a single twin mattress is foolishness, and at least, unrealistic. You might say, "I never said a single twin mattress!" But that was your example.



    The average consumer will actually say, "I lack the ability to haul larger things that wont fit in the back of my Mazda 626. I would like a quality product that can haul bigger things."

    He would then imagine different scenarios in which he would see the need for his carbine/truck being used. he might even forsee the need to haul big, heavy things up hills, and go through dirt roads, and adjust his priorities accordingly.

    Not everything is poo-pooed because it's not TDP compliant. Midlength gas systems are wildly popular here. 16" barrels are freaking ubiquitous. Pencil/lightweight barrels are wildly popular. The vast majority of guns here are not select fire. Any Magpul/VLTOR/whatever stock is not compliant with the M4 TDP. Go to a pic thread and tell me how many of those you see. 4150 barrels often come on guns that are less expensive to the buyer than guns with 4140 barrels, so in that case why would the buyer not want 4150CMV? Stainless barrels are commonplace here for precision applications. Who here has ever said that KAC's E3 bolt is a bad thing (outside of possible logistical concerns)?

    The fact is there are a litany of features that are embraced here that are not compliant with the M4 or M16 TDP. I think you are making a bigger deal out of this than it is.
    PERFECTLY SAID PALMGUY. You will find, as Palm guy said, that most here, do NOT adhere strictly to the TDP. Even companies like BCM etc. do not. They carry a variety of barrel lengths, barrel materials, including SS410, and CHF. There are certain elements of the TDP that are important to many professionals, sheepdogs, and civilians. That would be closer to your Ford f150 vs. 350 example.

    My uncle bought a Chevy truck, and it has given him nothing but problems. There isn't a week that goes by when he doesn't say, "I should have bought a Toyota truck." Mind you, he doesn't specify Tacoma, FJ Cruiser, Tundra, 4 runner, etc. But he knows the brand he trusts because of the...track record.

    It's really about brand names isn't it? It is about what brands have proven themselves, and which are lacking.

    To not choose the brands that are most reliable is just plain silly. Especially if you can envision yourself seeing the need to haul heavy materials with your truck in the future.

    Many are indeed making an AR purchase because they see a potential need for the most reliable weapon/truck they can get. They see it is their duty to train with it, and know their weapon.
    Last edited by Shiz; 05-02-12 at 11:06.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suwannee Tim View Post
    A little approximate calculation if you will permit me: the probability of a law abiding citizen getting into a gunfight, 1/1,000, the probability he will have or be able to get his AR before the fight is over, 1/10, the probability his Colt will fail, costing him his life, 1/10,000 and the probability his Bushie will fail costing him his life, 1/1000. So the probability your Colt will fail and cost you your life, 1/10,000,000 or 0.0000001, the probability your Bushie will fail you and cost you your life, 1/1,000,000 or 0.000001. I do not worry much about such low probability events.


    Interesting. What specific, documented information do you base these odds on?

    We get your point, but don't deny you are just throwing crap at the wall to see if it will stick.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suwannee Tim View Post
    A little approximate calculation if you will permit me: the probability of a law abiding citizen getting into a gunfight, 1/1,000, the probability he will have or be able to get his AR before the fight is over, 1/10, the probability his Colt will fail, costing him his life, 1/10,000 and the probability his Bushie will fail costing him his life, 1/1000. So the probability your Colt will fail and cost you your life, 1/10,000,000 or 0.0000001, the probability your Bushie will fail you and cost you your life, 1/1,000,000 or 0.000001. I do not worry much about such low probability events.

    Now consider the commonly given advice, "buy a Colt and shoot the heck out of it." I submit a Colt with 5,000 rounds down the pipe is less reliable than the Bushie with 500 rounds given that there are no grave flaws in the Bushie and the grave flaws seem to be unusual and in the distant past, at least in my limited experience.

    I expect many years pass and no law abiding civilian and no police officer looses his life because his AR failed him. There is not a day that goes by that a civillian does not loose his life to tire failure nor a week that goes by that a cop does not loose his life to tire failure. This is the kind of thing I worry about.
    This gets back to the main goal of m4c. It is for people who shoot regularly. Not for people that want a safe queen rifle.

    That aside I'll take a well maintained colt with 5000 rounds over the typical shot once a year, maybe cleaned and put back in the safe bushie.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safetyhit View Post
    Interesting. What specific, documented information do you base these odds on?

    We get your point, but don't deny you are just throwing crap at the wall to see if it will stick.
    They were 100% made up, but he was just trying to illustrate his POV (which I understand, but do not agree with).



    C4

  8. #98
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    I've been following this thread, I'm honestly surprised it hasn't gotten the axe yet...

    With all of the long winded posts, I think Grant has said it best:

    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Could one of those failures been when their life was on the line? Yep.

    I have to ask is why risk it by buying a weapon that is neither built right or is using parts that follow a standard???

    An AR is first and foremost a fighting rifle, I believe IG has hit on that before. I have many friends that have purchased subpar ARs and shoot a couple hundred rounds a year if they're feeling squirrely. In some SHTF scenario, if they have to defend themselves, family, and home, I know they would grab that weapon first because it is 'tactical.' Even if you're only shooting those 200 rounds each year, why have a weapon that may work even 95% of the time when you could have one that is a damn safe bet for roughly the same coin. I don't really see an argument for it...

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    The bold part is KEY! We have fixed more BM's (as an example) than you have EVER seen. We seel them fail in training classes all the time. Could one of those failures been when their life was on the line? Yep.

    I have to ask is why risk it by buying a weapon that is neither built right or is using parts that follow a standard???



    C4
    We live in a world full of risks, some controllable, some not. Some risks are big like a tire failure, some risks small like an AR failure. The soldier requires a top quality weapon. A cop needs a top quality weapon. The average guy will never know the difference. To answer the question, I am not advocating buying a lesser quality weapon, just trying to put the risk in perspective.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    They were 100% made up, but he was just trying to illustrate his POV (which I understand, but do not agree with).

    Certainly, and I tried to elude that I knew he was just making stuff up to prove a point. But even at that it was misleading, this because just mentioning shooting a certain manufacturer's rifle as the example doesn't consider ammo quality or suitability and it also doesn't factor in using a decent mag. Even as guesswork it was over-simplified because different manufacturer's sometimes have different tolerance levels for such things.

    But again I do get his point and am not looking to say there is absolutely nothing to it, just that there's more to the overall picture when determining reliability.

    Although now I'm probably over-thinking as well.
    Last edited by Safetyhit; 05-02-12 at 11:43.

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