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Thread: Do you know the definition of quality?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    Right. Since you can get one in the $1K range, has one of the best names (if not the best name) in the AR world, is reliable and holds its value (which is very important if you need to sell it) the Colt AR is an easy choice.



    C4


    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    and because, regardless of WHAT spec it's built to, we have a better confidence that it will run for the new shooter so they can focus on, you know, shooting. We have all seen the poor new guy with his sub-par rifle having failure after failure and not learning a damn thing other than he should have bought something else.
    Agreed.
    Last edited by Palmguy; 05-01-12 at 11:38.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    People either understand or they don't.
    This strikes me as 3 pages of some one trying to justify buying garbage by "muddying the waters".
    I guess I'm so simple minded that I just trust "the chart", and it's author.
    Exactly my thoughts.

    This whole thread reeks of someone trying to justify their purchase of a carbine that's not suitable for anything other than range use.

    Sure, a company can not follow the TDP and still make a quality rifle suitable for self defense. BUT.. They need to be using the TDP as a minimum and then they can improve on that as they see fit. Literally every company out there that is not following "mil-spec" or the TDP is doing so to save $$$. It's not hard to see.

    Why would a manufacturer not follow "mil-spec" requirements and/or the TDP? Think about it. Why would they not? What reason do they have not to? Because they can save money. They can cut corners.

    I don't care if my Magpul stock or other accessories does not meet the TDP because generally they are not associated with the reliability and quality standard of the gun. It's simply to customize the rifle to suit the primary user (you) better.

    My BCM is using all kinds of different accessories (all quality) that might not technically meet the TDP, BUT the heart of the gun and where it counts definitely does -- that's what matters and that's where companies like Rock River and Bushmaster cut so many corners.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Speaking of drums, you've been a member here for far too long to just now be bringing all this up. What's driving this now out of the blue? You say you're not stirring the pot but I'm not sure I believe that just yet. What was it that caused you to post this now? If you think you're bringing fire to the cavemen and telling people something they didn't know, the disclaimer I quoted above has been a part of the Chart for years.
    I read more than I post & I wouldn't call having a discussion on determining requirements and filling needs "stirring the pot". But I'll be honest, my thread the other day narrowing down carbine choices that got shut down drove this post but it's something I've been wanting to discuss for a while. Folks gave their input usually "Get Colt, DD, a BCM. They're quality guns." but for the most part were unable to explain why. Which IMO pointed to people not really knowing what quality actually is. I took it as an opportunity to fill a gap with some knowledge & hopefully get people to evaluate needs/wants/application/use prior to making decisions or giving input. IMO, it's not enough to have the right an answer, you should be able to qualify it as well and lately people haven't really been doing that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaykayyy
    And to the guys whining about spending more on training, and relying less on the hardware, you just sound like your [sic] trying to make yourself feel superior.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by djmorris View Post
    Exactly my thoughts.

    This whole thread reeks of someone trying to justify their purchase of a carbine that's not suitable for anything other than range use.
    How do you determine suitability? I'm challenging the dogma that "suitable" always = "TDP spec".

    Quote Originally Posted by djmorris View Post
    Why would a manufacturer not follow "mil-spec" requirements and/or the TDP? Think about it. Why would they not? What reason do they have not to?
    Maybe the end user is not the military?

    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    The slippery slope of choosing parts that do not conform to the TDP is that there are OTHER repercussions of this. Meaning, when I see a 1/9 twist rate on an AR, I IMMEDIATELY think out of spec chamber and overly large gas port. Another concern I have is that the gun is not assembled properly.
    I hear you but, that is a result of poor QC from a vendor not deviating from the TDP.
    Last edited by Sry0fcr; 05-01-12 at 12:07.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaykayyy
    And to the guys whining about spending more on training, and relying less on the hardware, you just sound like your [sic] trying to make yourself feel superior.

  5. #55
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    Anybody that spends an hour here, and still doesnt know what is quality, and why, I don't think they ever will.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it" Thomas Jefferson
    "Civilization is a wonderful, but paper thin concept" JW777

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sry0fcr View Post
    I read more than I post & I wouldn't call having a discussion on determining requirements and filling needs "stirring the pot". But I'll be honest, my thread the other day narrowing down carbine choices that got shut down drove this post but it's something I've been wanting to discuss for a while. Folks gave their input usually "Get Colt, DD, a BCM. They're quality guns." but for the most part were unable to explain why. Which IMO pointed to people not really knowing what quality actually is. I took it as an opportunity to fill a gap with some knowledge & hopefully get people to evaluate needs/wants/application/use prior to making decisions or giving input. IMO, it's not enough to have the right an answer, you should be able to qualify it as well and lately people haven't really been doing that.
    Since most of the people asking the questions aren't asking the right questions either, I'd say they get what they deserve. If someone doesn't ask anything more than "what AR should I get?" then they really don't deserve any more response than "Get a Colt, BCM, DD, etc."

    Your thread that got locked appeared to be a fishing expedition as well, frankly.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sry0fcr View Post
    Maybe the end user is not the military?
    I would like for you to stop attempting to be socratic and superior and vague and instead be specific.

    He asked you a question. Answer it. Outside of cost, what un-checked box on the Chart is a positive reason for an empty blank? Yes, I've read all the recent nonsense from companies that do not wish to pay for, or know how to perform, HPT/MPI, regarding how skipping it is "better" so let's leave that one alone as a tar baby we don't want to get stuck in. Pick something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sry0fcr View Post
    Phillip Crosby defines quality as conformance to requirements, not goodness or elegance. ... If I were to order 12 DPMS carbines from a distributor and they send me 13 6920’s is this a non conformance? Absolutely. The distributor failed to meet the requirements of my P.O. despite me receiving “more” & “better”.
    What you defined there is accuracy, not quality. You might be confusing "quality of service" with the actual term "quality", which is a characteristic of an item. The former relates to accuracy and is what you are talking about - getting precisely what you ordered. That is not at all the same thing as the actual term "quality". You might be missing the context of Crosby's definition.
    Last edited by feedramp; 05-01-12 at 12:35.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sry0fcr View Post


    I hear you but, that is a result of poor QC from a vendor not deviating from the TDP.
    They go hand in hand.



    C4

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I would like for you to stop attempting to be socratic and superior and vague and instead be specific.

    He asked you a question. Answer it. Outside of cost, what un-checked box on the Chart is a positive reason for an empty blank? Yes, I've read all the recent nonsense from companies that do not wish to pay for, or know how to perform, HPT/MPI, regarding how skipping it is "better" so let's leave that one alone as a tar baby we don't want to get stuck in. Pick something else.
    I answered his question. The reason that Colt follows the TDP is because it's what the military specified. Specifications aren't positive or negative, they're just specs. It's up to the customer to decide what they want and up to the vendor to provide exactly what's the customer ordered. It's really that simple. I can only answer that question for myself and my requirements, others may differ and that's fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaykayyy
    And to the guys whining about spending more on training, and relying less on the hardware, you just sound like your [sic] trying to make yourself feel superior.

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