Are 'muzzle high' tactics generally a no-no?

[hunt_ak]

After taking Jason Falla's Basic Pistol course last year, I posted a picture of myself.



This pic was taken after a string of fire during my 'scan and assess' (you can see the targets behind me, I'm looking left/right and keeping muzzle high to not cover the shooter next to me). I admit that my muzzle is likely a bit too high, but I got razzed for having 'hollywood ready' by a couple friends who are .mil and LEO.

I was told that nobody should EVER carry a pistol that way and its not even an acceptable way to hold a pistol under any circumstance. They were basically saying that depressing toward the ground (which I did right after this pic was snapped) would be the first thing you should always do.

Fast forward a few months...I sent this video to the same guy and asked his view on it with regards to the same topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f_eaA9zsbI

Again he says 'not good' and stated that you could be flagging someone 1/2 mile away and cited this article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1162704.html

I've seen 'muzzle high' training/tactics in videos recently and after he said:

I dont think you will find any reputable tactical team that teaches the "Hollywood ready" as an acceptable method.

I thought I would let you guys chew on it. Whats the scoop?

[Joeywhat]

I've trained with a few different trainers, and the answer is usually the same (the good ones, at least): it has it's place.

I tend not to go back to classes that say certain techniques have no place (outside of being unsafe, etc.). There are no absolutes in life. I've always trained to be muzzle down when not actively engaging a target, but I've also been taught (though rarely use) muzzle up for a few reasons. The biggest being that if there are a lot of people around you, that may be the safest place for the muzzle. Especially if you have kids right around you...muzzle down may flag your kid right on top of the head - NOT GOOD.

There are also additional reasons mostly suited towards LEO/MIL that I don't really remember off hand as they pertained mostly to entry teams and whatnot (I'm not LEO/MIL).

I will say that I prefer muzzle down for some of the reasons your friend stated - if there is an ND, the round is going to the ground and not flying a half mile away to potentially hit some dude while he's on the crapper or something. BUT, I also see the use for muzzle up, and am open to it's use. IMO those that aren't need to stop being closed minded, they'll probably be better shooters because of it.

And this isn't to say I think muzzle up is the way to go and that everything else sucks (because someone will say it... ), rather I understand it's usefulness in real world scenarios and keep it as an option to use should my 'typical' ready position not be suitable for any given reason.

[hunt_ak]

Thanks for the reply. I hear ya on 'absolutes'. The guy who comments and says "Weak gun handling skills, bro, only idiots do that. Oh, and BTW, lose the plastic and get a REAL gun" gets on my nerves. I realize a few tours overseas can give you TONS of insight on this subject but I don't think it makes you a SME by any means...

[Aray]

Absolutes are not useful IMHO. What if there are people downstairs and a roof above? What direction makes sense? Context is important.

[Bluedreaux]

Generally, (in a LE context) no instructor is going to teach that and you'll catch a hard time for doing it.

And you're shooting wrong handed....

[d90king]

The guy is a stone cold idiot. Stop seeking advice from morons and NRA types.

There are many instructors that run high ready/compressed ready. There are others who run SUL and low ready. They each have there application. Context and environment is everything.

Take some time to review the AAR forum and you will see many instructors that run this way. Just curious, if you were training with Jason and he thinks its GTG why would you care what some idiot thinks?

[hunt_ak]

And you're shooting wrong handed....

You caught me...

The guy is a stone cold idiot. Stop seeking advice from morons and NRA types.

There are many instructors that run high ready/compressed ready. There are others who run SUL and low ready. They each have there application. Context and environment is everything.

Take some time to review the AAR forum and you will see many instructors that run this way. Just curious, if you were training with Jason and he thinks its GTG why would you care what some idiot thinks?

I have been seeing this in recent AARs and thats why I thought I'd ask. That said, I know he isn't a 'stone cold idiot' and I just wanted to gain more insight on this as I like to learn as much methodology as possible. Maybe like Bluedreaux said, it could be more of an LEO thing where training in shoot houses and whatnot is much more likely.

[hunt_ak]

Edit - This still is not worthy of M4c.

M4 Staff.

[C4IGrant]

Following the "context" of what you have written with the photo, you have just shot someone and they are down. You are now "hunting" for another threat to shoot. With that out of the way, I would personally advise against how you have the gun in this pic. If that guy you just shot is still a threat, your pistol is not in the best position to quickly get rounds on target. If another threat appears, your pistol is not in the optimal position to put rounds on target IMHO.

For me, my "scan" position after engaging a threat is basically a compressed high ready. The main reasons for it is that I log a lot of hours in shoot houses and having your weapon far from your body can make it much more easily grabbed. I can also shoot from a compressed high ready. If you think about the fact that the place you will most likely need to defend yourself is your home, a compressed high ready makes a lot of sense.

Break Break


If we switch this discussion to a "searching" position (not I shot someone and am scanning for another threat position), then how you have the gun MIGHT be ok in certain circumstances. As said by others, there are really no absolutes and that position might be the best one for the environment your are in.


For me personally, I neither teach nor use the position you are utilizing in the photo as I believe there are others that are superior.


YMMV.



C4

[JHC]

Great pic. That is all.