Negligent Discharge at 3 Gun This Past Weekend

[Shawn.L]

I hear what your saying, but how many people will be able to flip the switch and do whats right at the right time. Just doesn't make sense to train folks to opposite of what they should do.

Ive spoken to a fair number of "real deal face shooters" who enjoy playing gun games for what they are, and while the whole "that will get you killed on the street!" rhetoric makes some logical simple sense Ive yet to see any real evidence of someone who plays gun games under fire suddenly thinking they are in a game and unloading and showing clear.

Personally I like to compete, and I dont for one second believe I will suddenly lose my mind in a lethal force encounter (I have been a number of fights, armed robberies, and one shooting where I was not armed).

What I do know is that shooting competition has pushed me to become a better marksman and gun handler than I believe I would have otherwise. Further I have seen in some training using SIM guns and under world class instruction where my gaming experience has paid off in spades. I am absolutely unconcerned with solving the shooting the problem. And no one needs to remind where you are when a round comes cracking past your ear.

I will add that I think gaming , for me, is part of a largely inclusive well rounded training regime that includes real hands on FoF (what most CCW types severely lack is not fractions of a second on a reload but knowing whats its like to have someone bigger and stronger than you wrap you up with ill intent), Martial Arts, top tier training in firearms of all types, blades, role playing, grappling, and yes playing gun games to win.

[Moltke]

shooting competition has pushed me to become a better marksman and gun handler than I believe I would have otherwise.

I will add that I think gaming , for me, is part of a largely inclusive well rounded training regime

These comments jumped out at me.

The way I look at it, gun games are just another part of my training plan for a real life encounter that may never come. My goal is to master my weapon and master myself, and doing those things will only help me if I ever have to defend my life or that of my loved ones with a firearm. My competitive nature is naturally strong but coupled with the fact that I get to test my skill set periodically against other like minded shooters... I see this only as win-win.

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that a person interested in self defense replace their training with competitions.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I've got to think there's real life situations in which you'd want to go from rifle to pistol and back to rifle rather quickly, and therefore there's got to be ways to 1) practice it and 2) set a CoF to test it.

Any ideas?

Split the stage in two. Maybe it is a good question for our SME section, but I've never heard of a tactical reason to rapidly go from your handgun to your rifle. I'm not a real ninja or a square range ninja, but trying to go thru it logically in my head.

You start with a rifle and it goes down so you switch to the handgun. The only time you'd go back to the rifle is if you are in a safe place where you'll be able to get the rifle back up and running. If there are threats you don't want a good handgun in the holster and a bad rifle being finger banged, right?

The other scenario is that you are running a handgun and you find a battlefield pick up rifle. In an active situation, do you really want to put your known handgun away and run a rifle that be definition got the last guy who held it shot?

The only scenario where I see you rapidly going from the handgun to the rifle is that some far threat, that can't be engaged with a handgun, nessesitates that you go to the rifle (you know is good)- NOW! I guess then you speed reholster and get on the rifle, but if it is that much of a time-is-life moment, you could almost argue that literally dropping handgun and getting on the rifle would be the best route- that's what we do with the rifle when we switch to the handgun (granted it is usually slung and inoperative).

Anyway you slice it, you are timing someone on their holstering ability.

I guess what the real crux is, yes someone can come up with a scenario where you need to speed reholster, but I would argue that the practicing of this is not worth the risk.

And what will people say when it happens again? There is already one GSW victim from training for a scenario that has limited tactical value.

Stop the clock, reholster. Restart the clock or add times together. No need to tape up targets or do the things that make matches last forever.

[G-lock]

Ive spoken to a fair number of "real deal face shooters" who enjoy playing gun games for what they are, and while the whole "that will get you killed on the street!" rhetoric makes some logical simple sense Ive yet to see any real evidence of someone who plays gun games under fire suddenly thinking they are in a game and unloading and showing clear.

Personally I like to compete, and I dont for one second believe I will suddenly lose my mind in a lethal force encounter (I have been a number of fights, armed robberies, and one shooting where I was not armed).

What I do know is that shooting competition has pushed me to become a better marksman and gun handler than I believe I would have otherwise. Further I have seen in some training using SIM guns and under world class instruction where my gaming experience has paid off in spades. I am absolutely unconcerned with solving the shooting the problem. And no one needs to remind where you are when a round comes cracking past your ear.

I will add that I think gaming , for me, is part of a largely inclusive well rounded training regime that includes real hands on FoF (what most CCW types severely lack is not fractions of a second on a reload but knowing whats its like to have someone bigger and stronger than you wrap you up with ill intent), Martial Arts, top tier training in firearms of all types, blades, role playing, grappling, and yes playing gun games to win.

Clearly some folks will be able to flip the switch so to speak, but I still think we are enforcing bad habits on folks who can least afford them. Thanks again for the food for thought.

[Shawn.L]

Clearly some folks will be able to flip the switch so to speak, but I still think we are enforcing bad habits on folks who can least afford them. Thanks again for the food for thought.

to add more food for thought lets think of the issue of scale.

I have several thousand hours of formal firearms training and dedicated practice using what most would call solid fighting technique , hot guns, real use of cover , opponents with malevolent intent, ect.
If I shoot 2 matches a month I will need to "unload and show clear" 10 times....... see where Im going ?

Now, if your only training (which it isnt)/ practice is gun games.... youve got more issues than just holstering a hot gun will solve.

[MIKE G]

Glad he was not seriously hurt. BTW, most GSW distal extremity wounds require local pressure only to control bleeding. It is very rare to need a tourniquet for these wounds - especially in the US where hospitals are fairly common.

Please don't comment if you are going to provide incorrect information.

Extremity wounds consistent with the area that the OP described that do involve arteries can be a serious life threat and require a TQ. Considering that in extremity wounds beyond the knee and elbow you can still lose enough blood to go into shock within 10-15 minutes a TQ is not the wrong thing to do if arterial bleeding is identified upon initial inspection of the patient/wound.

The commonness of hospitals in the US has little to do with anything if the range you are shooting at is 45 minutes away or further from the closest facility. With the exception of indoor ranges (relative rarity), most ranges are a good distance from developed towns or cities.

Even when close to a hospital you shouldn't rationalize that you are close enough to not take aggressive steps towards stopping arterial bleeding. I am reminded of a LEO dying in the back of a patrol car as his colleagues tried to use direct pressure only to stop bleeding from a lower extremity femoral wound after being involved in a shooting that was "less than 5 minutes from the hospital".


Add on top of that the fact that the earliest info on TQs from our most recent conflicts in AFG and Iraq were supporting use even in theater during the days where the average time of a medevac transport from point of injury to at a minimum a BAS was under 1 hour (circa 2005), relative close proximity does not excuse using a TQ as a 'last resort' just before the patient has lost all the blood they can dump on the ground because direct pressure failed.

Feel free to spout off about nerve/tissue damage, lactic acid build up, loss of function, loss of limb, etc but most of these have been dispelled as long as you use a premanufactured TQ at least 1" wide and it is removed within a few hours (3-5 depending on the info source).

I agree that this patient did not need a TQ but painting with such a broad brush isn't helpful.

[Alaskapopo]

I am a fan of BIG BOY rules on the range and prefer to be HOT all the time but I know that is not the case in the game world. NEVER is a gun put back in a holster without showing clear at least at the comps I have been to. Way too much to risk as we have just seen.

BIG difference betwen real world and games. There are tons of great games shooters out there but very few would I want to go down a dark hallway with! I stopped shooting IDPA and USPSA for a while because I was getting all assed up by all the rules of what you could do and how and when you could handle your weapons. The range I operate in daily is not square or has a 180 firing line so it was hard for me to deal with. I got tired of all the range nazis.

Im back at it now and realize that there is a switch that needs to be turned off if you operate under big boy rules and want to play gun games.

I know how you feel. I have come to accept cold ranges and I understand why they exist but I prefer a hot range myself.
Pat

[sboza]

ShawnL-
I struggle with the belief that holstering a hot pistol during a COF is unsafe. Since almost all of us are CCW types this is surely a skill one must master.

We run a game called ACTS here in MI and we have reholstered on the clock for the better part of 6 years without incident. We strive to provide as real world scenarios as we can create with in the confines of the square range and I think when people often refer to the mindset that competition builds bad habits, the inability to reholster a hot pistol is certianly one I don't think we should be propagating.

I tend to think, how hard is it to get people to keep their head screwed on straight under pressure of competition and if they can't handle that, what are they gonna do in the mix of a real deadly force encounter. All this unloading and grounding weapons is tactically unsound.

I know next to nothing about competition but I am going to call bullshit on this one. Forgive me for being out of my lane.

In the real world, you bring fire on your threat as quickly as possible while maintaining appropriate accuracy. There is no clock pushing you to reholster in a hurry. As a matter of fact, holstering too quickly itself is a horrible range scar. Doing so on a clock seems to me like it exacerbates the issue.

Holstering quickly can lead to finger on the trigger if not appropriately trained, brain farts such as forgetting to decock, and difficult to control issues such as clothing or other objects finding their way into the trigger guard on reholster. Why the hell would you ever train to drop your guard as fast as possible?

Just because your club has done so without incident for 6 years doesn't mean shit. Sounds like institutional inbreeding to me. And just because you have a CCW doesn't mean that it is safe, or tactically prudent, to reholster in a hurry.

I think you need to reevaluate your thinking before deciding what is "tactically unsound" and not.

[Alaskapopo]

I like hot ranges but holstering should never be done on the clock. In real life you should never be in a rush to put your gun away.
Pat

[G-lock]

to add more food for thought lets think of the issue of scale.

I have several thousand hours of formal firearms training and dedicated practice using what most would call solid fighting technique , hot guns, real use of cover , opponents with malevolent intent, ect.
If I shoot 2 matches a month I will need to "unload and show clear" 10 times....... see where Im going ?

Now, if your only training (which it isnt)/ practice is gun games.... youve got more issues than just holstering a hot gun will solve.

ShawnL-
You and I are clearly guys who can flip the switch, but I worry more about the guys who don't have the training and experience we do.

These are are just starting to learn what they don't know. Also to be clear, I don't have an issue with clearing at the end of a stage, for me it's clearing and grounding a working gun during an engagement so that you can access another gun.

This is commonly done in 3 gun and it is more to what I was refering to. I see how one of my prior comments addressed the clearing at the end of a stage as the problem.