Negligent Discharge at 3 Gun This Past Weekend

[JR TACTICAL]

Glad he was not seriously hurt. BTW, most GSW distal extremity wounds require local pressure only to control bleeding. It is very rare to need a tourniquet for these wounds - especially in the US where hospitals are fairly common.

Agreed, OP be careful to jump right to tourniquet use. In some cases that can actually cause more harm than good. Firm, direct pressure is usually all that is needed

[G-lock]

I know next to nothing about competition but I am going to call bullshit on this one. Forgive me for being out of my lane.

In the real world, you bring fire on your threat as quickly as possible while maintaining appropriate accuracy. There is no clock pushing you to reholster in a hurry. As a matter of fact, holstering too quickly itself is a horrible range scar. Doing so on a clock seems to me like it exacerbates the issue.

Holstering quickly can lead to finger on the trigger if not appropriately trained, brain farts such as forgetting to decock, and difficult to control issues such as clothing or other objects finding their way into the trigger guard on reholster. Why the hell would you ever train to drop your guard as fast as possible?

Just because your club has done so without incident for 6 years doesn't mean shit. Sounds like institutional inbreeding to me. And just because you have a CCW doesn't mean that it is safe, or tactically prudent, to reholster in a hurry.

I think you need to reevaluate your thinking before deciding what is "tactically unsound" and not.

Sboza-
While I respect your ability to provide input, I would request you try to be a bit more civil, two insults in three paragraphs is a bit galling.

In reviewing some of what I written, I think I may have gotten abit off line in what I was intending to relate.

So to attempt to be clear, what I have an issue with is the requirement in some games (3-gun) to clear and ground a gun before moving to the next weapon. In my mind it is tactily unsound to abandon a working weapon.

Additionaly, it is my thinking that a person should be able to control themselves and be able to holster a hot pistol at anytime safely, if the pressure of the clock is to overwlehming to them then maybe they shoud reconsider their choice to choose firearms as their martial art, as a real world encounter is a hell of lot more pressure than any game.

So let me ask one further broad question, say you have just been in a gun fight, you vanquish your foe and now you need to deal with the hit on your leg, so what are you gonna do with that blaster, clear it and set it down or are you gonna reholster it and get one with saving your life before you bleed out. I know I'd want my blaster handy in case his friends show up, but in the mean time I might need two hand to treat myself or others.

[G-lock]

I like hot ranges but holstering should never be done on the clock. In real life you should never be in a rush to put your gun away.
Pat

Pat-
I agree about the hot range, if you look at my post to Sboza, I think I/we got off the rails a bit. My beef is with clearing and abandoning a working weapon during a course of fire and with the entire concept that folks are incapable of holstering a hot pistol under any kind of stress. Could be I'm full of crap, but I do aprrecaite the civil input may others have provided in this thread.

[The_War_Wagon]

First off, kudos to you guys who leapt into action to the wounded man's aid. Ass-chewings and AAR's can mop up the details later, but when it all went wrong for him, sounds like y'all did it RIGHT for him.

That said, I'm gonna stand with Shawn on this one. Having had to retrain/replace my OLD guy, 20-year-out-of-date fundamentals under his tutelage (and others) these past couple of years, the emphasis has all been on the SLOW/SECURE re-holster.

From a self-defense standpoint, when all is TRULY clear, then you can smoke 'em if ya' got 'em, clear the pistol as necessary, RE-holster, and wait for the police to come file a report. If you're gaming on a range, so be it. I don't run 3-gun, so I like the way Shawn's taught me - especially as a 1911 guy!

Keep us posted on how this affects your range/competition rules. Since - thankfully - AD/ND's seem rare among us, I think it will be helpful to examine the "lessons learned" in the aftermath of this incident.

[sboza]

So let me ask one further broad question, say you have just been in a gun fight, you vanquish your foe and now you need to deal with the hit on your leg, so what are you gonna do with that blaster, clear it and set it down or are you gonna reholster it and get one with saving your life before you bleed out. I know I'd want my blaster handy in case his friends show up, but in the mean time I might need two hand to treat myself or others.

I don't understand the disconnect here. There is very little in competition that reinforces sound tactics to begin with. Shooting ability under pressure and a chance to do non square range type of shooting seem to be a major benefit of competition.

Rushing from target to target, improper use of cover, speed reloads, and on an on ... These are quick examples of things conpetition shooters do that have a much higher chance of creating a bad habit than taking your time to reholster. In addition, speed reholstering itself is a range scar! It is a bad habit that good instructors try to correct in students.

The thing you are not getting is that even if you're ice under game pressure, unfortunate things such as clothing of foreign objects can get caught in the trigger on reholster. And again, speed reholstering is not a skill, it is a bad habit. It is not something to brag about and it is tactically unsound.

Reholstering is a simple concept. You don't put your weapon away until the threats are verifiably gone in most cases (exceptions when dealing with a potential le response an you are in civilian attire but still there is no need to speed reholster, but you may choose to deliberately holster prior to seeking cover as running around with a gun could create more confusion and responding officers may think you are the shooter). So when you holster, you will have the benefit of time. Make sure your area is clear, move to cover if possible, and reholster deliberately making sure to sweep clothing away from the holster and thumb on the rear of the slide/hammer. Some instructors are dogmatic about not looking at the holster what reholstering. That is a good habit to maximize your sa but not an unbreakable rule as you shouldn't (usually) be reholstering unless the situation is resolved.

As to your hypothetical, I hate these novice games because in the real world, you figure it out as you go along. Hypotheticals are mostly a useless game unless used by an individual to visualize realistically (a good game if one has the ability to stay realistic). But here is my answer, IT DEPENDS. Depends on the nature of the fight an if u am expecting more threats, if I have buddies present, the extent of my injuries, etc... But no matter what the circumstance, I see no reason to jam the gun back in my holster. It literally take 2 seconds to deliberately reholster!!!

I will add that there are times when a person may, under pressure and without thinking, holster in a hurry without sacrificing proper tactics. Fir example, leo with gun drawn who is forced into a chase (I say if the bg warranted a gun pulled in him, run with gun in hand but sop's vary), an active shooter response from someone in civilian attire who doesn't want to be confused as the shooter (my opinion, you still take a second or two to holster), etc... I still see no reason to speed reholster but it may happen. When it does however, years of proper manipulation will decreases the chance of an ad. But, although unlikely, a piece of clothing or kit could still get into the trigger guard and cause a boom. So this "method" is still unsafe in my opinion.

But for 99% of situations where you draw your gun, it is BOTH unsafe AND bad tactics to speed reholster. I am sorry if I came across as rude in my previous comment but it seems to me that you have made decisions on tactics based on your competition experience and that is a mistake IMHO.


I typed way more than I had planned and I don't have the patience to edit this on my phone. Sorry for the rough an somewhat rambling response.

[G-lock]

sboza-
I'm not sure if we have a disconnect here. I have never advocated "speed reholstering", only holstering as fast as safe when necessary. As I wrote to Alaskapopo(Pat) my issue is more about the requirement during most comps to clear and abandon the weapon, rather than to make it safe and retain it e.g. holster or sling it.

As for our club, doing the things you outlined here "Rushing from target to target, improper use of cover" will get you hammered with penalities and discarding a weapon is a DQ.

We have talked many times about discarding timed scoring completely and just concentrating on doing things correctly or a real life as possible and in that vein I am never gonna clear and discard a functional weapon at any point in the real world. That said when folks are paying to shoot you have to provide them some kind of performance metric so time is what we are stuck with.

In the end we may just be at opposite points and we will have to disagree, but I have enjoyed the exchange.

[G-lock]

First off, kudos to you guys who leapt into action to the wounded man's aid. Ass-chewings and AAR's can mop up the details later, but when it all went wrong for him, sounds like y'all did it RIGHT for him.

That said, I'm gonna stand with Shawn on this one. Having had to retrain/replace my OLD guy, 20-year-out-of-date fundamentals under his tutelage (and others) these past couple of years, the emphasis has all been on the SLOW/SECURE re-holster.

From a self-defense standpoint, when all is TRULY clear, then you can smoke 'em if ya' got 'em, clear the pistol as necessary, RE-holster, and wait for the police to come file a report. If you're gaming on a range, so be it. I don't run 3-gun, so I like the way Shawn's taught me - especially as a 1911 guy!

Keep us posted on how this affects your range/competition rules. Since - thankfully - AD/ND's seem rare among us, I think it will be helpful to examine the "lessons learned" in the aftermath of this incident.

Wouldn't that be tac reload and reholster as necessary??

[Alaskapopo]

Taking speed out of the competition is more dangerous than allowing bad tactics. People will shoot as slow as possible within the allowed time I see it with our quals. This is not good because in real life the one who cuts meat first generally wins.
Pat

[sboza]

Taking speed out of the competition is more dangerous than allowing bad tactics. People will shoot as slow as possible within the allowed time I see it with our quals. This is not good because in real life the one who cuts meat first generally wins.
Pat

I don't think anyone is advocating drawing slowly. The issue has been reholstering.

[Alaskapopo]

I don't think anyone is advocating drawing slowly. The issue has been reholstering.

I agree. I thought I saw a poster saying that they were going to do away with timed competitions at their club and only focus on accuracy. I feel that is a bad way to go based on personal experience.
Pat