Is it really that bad?
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Is it really that bad?
There are more than two sides to this coin. Yes, some LGS guys are tools, on purpose. Some are college kids that two weeks ago were selling coffee at Starbucks. Some are consummate professionals that take pride in there job, and educate themselves then in turn educate their customers. Not all cops are gun guys, the same holds true for gun shop employees. Unless you find that LGS employee that truly enjoys his profession, immerses him/herself in it, and then actually cares enough to want to help people, you're getting whatever brand you ask for.
Another issue is cost, yes some RRA cost the same or more as a BCM, but there are plenty of Bushies, DPMS, and Stags on the wall for $899, which is several hundred less than the much better offerings of BCM, DD, and LMT. Colt is the best option, price and availability wise, not to mention brand recognition, to save the novice from the lesser quality brands. Then there's the MP Sport that set the new bar at $649, and some people just can't imagine paying more for something else that looks just like the one that costs $300-$600 less. Many, and I mean MANY, people are price driven.
Then you have the guys that want bushmaster because there buddy has one, or there brother is special forces and that's what he told him to get. You have buyers who have an uncle that's a cop, and he uses bushmaster at work. The list, and excuses, go on and on. Sometimes you just have to give the people what the people want.
I love my job, I pride myself in knowing product. I've been shooting, building, fixing buddies home built AR's, and reading forums since, well, longer than I care to admit. I will help those that are open to my help, or I will sell you that bushmaster if you shrug me off because your SF brother told you not to listen to me.
My shop doesn't stock BCM, DD, LMT, or Noveske, but I can order them and have one in a couple days if you're willing to give me 20 minutes of your time and let me break down the bushy/dpms/RRA, or whatever POS you think is best and compare it to the colt/Knights I have on the wall or my Noveske and BCM I bring to work for this very reason. If you're open to learn, I will educate you.
Most, but not all car salesman are jackholes, and not all LGS guys are out to rip you off. Stupid hurts, it just works out that way. Like Grant said, Al Gore gave us a true gift in the internet, there is no excuse not to educate yourself. We don't sell common sense, and a lot of customers wouldn't buy it if we did.
Last edited by straitR; 05-03-12 at 23:55.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=64658
So, generally speaking, there are certain assumptions that your established m4carbine.net member is going to make when we see someone asking questions about guns or gear.
We assume that:
you plan on shooting the gun.
looks don’t matter to you.
your use is other than firing from the bench at the local public range.
your use will entail some kind of dynamic application (competition, defense, training, etc.)
you are buying based on a perceived need.
your need is not “buy it to have it”.
you actually want advice, not confirmation or validation of a choice already made.
Given those assumptions, you may not always like the response you get. But hopefully reading and understanding those assumptions will help put them in a context that helps you get a feel for what we’re about, and why you got the response you did. The established membership here wants to help. Many of us have years of experience and costly lessons learned, and we are trying to save you and others the same mistakes we made. But we base that on a perceived need, and an assumption that you are making purchases and decisions for the same reason we are. It’s not about the ride, it’s about the destination.
I'm just saying. Your fishing pole analogy does not necessarily work in this instance.
Yeah, my better of the few LGS carries an LWRC with the stupid zombie print on it. They are also starting to stock A LOT of the Core 15 models as well as a few S&W M&P models. They WILL however order whatever you want. I only deal with the owner, and he actually recommended the KAC SR-15, which fortunately I was looking for anyways and he ended up giving me a big discount since I bought two. I am going to order (hopefully soon) the SBR model of the SR15.... maybe two![]()
Last edited by hotrodder636; 05-04-12 at 09:51. Reason: Stupid iPad
ETC (SW/AW), USN (1998-2008)
CVN-65, USS Enterprise
It's funny you guys brought up the bicycle analogy becasue I was going to post this since there are so many similarities.
My background - I raced bikes for a pseudo-living for 8 years winning enough cash in Pro/1/2 (pro/am) races to pay the rent and was the mechanic for 2 time RAAM winner Danny Chew, my training partner after I quit racing. I've owned a shop for 12 years.
Every industry has varying levels of knowledge. You have part time high school kids, college kids, enthusiasts and hard core riders. Everyone gives different advice based on their experiences and to the lay man anyone who rides more than 10 miles at a time is an expert. In their own minds most of those riders are experts too because they know more than just about anyone around them even if their knowledge base is very limited. Same thing with gun sellers. One in a million uses their guns as hard as some on this site do. The rest are still a ninja compared to the lay person. Not many are scamming their customers, they just don't know any better.
We deal with all kinds of customers who have different expectations, needs and ideas. I don't "push" a certain bike or drive folks to the high end stuff. I talk with them and figure out which style fits their riding then explain what they get as they move up the price spectrum (better shifting, better bearings, tougher tires, easier rolling, etc.). Some folks are willing to spend the cash for the better machines and some want to by the DPMS.
I get goobers coming in explaining to me why a certain brand or model of wheel/frame/fork is better for high speed cornering when they have never taken a corner over 15 miles per hour. I could piss them off and guarantee they will tell all their friends I suck by "pwning" them with reality or I can sell them their RRA and they go away happy. Am I a dirtbag by letting them continue to believe they have the best when they don't?
If a person is going to ride hard or race as they improve they will be risking physical harm if equipment fails. If you take your bike over 60 MPH routinely or hit corners over 30 MPH you had better have the best. For more pedestrian riding it won't matter.
Here's why so few LGS sell the high end brands (beside Colt) - As a business owner I get bombarded by companies who want me to sell their stuff. The problem is that if they aren't in the normal distribution channels it costs me a lot more to get and stock them. Onesy-twosy shipping kills margin because of both the higher shipping to profit ratio and the extra time wasted dealing with a separate company for a single item instead of it being one of many items on an order.
I would rather have a shop that just sold high end machines and dealt with customers who have their act "together" but I live in the real world of business where the vast majority just want a bike. Trying to push a $700 bike on them for better bearings won't matter because their longest ride will be 8 miles and they may only ride 200 miles a year.
If some dude is going to fire his RRA with Walmart Federal Bulk Pack .223 300 rounds/year will the RRA go bang and last him forever? Probably. He may have an issue with some parts but the gun is a toy to him. Most folks don't keep an AR loaded up for home defense, they have an 870 with birdshot and the AR sits in the safe or closet empty ().
I sell a hundred bottom feeders for every high end bike and would go out of business if I tried to convince the average consumer that they needed to upgrade. Every business is the same way no matter what the industry is.
Very well said Lomshek and Straitr. In the end I believe it is the consumers job to educate themselves a little before buying. A little research goes a long way to less headaches in the future. Caveat Emptor comes to mind.
Twenty minutes on this site and any newb would gave a good idea of what to buy and what to avoid.
I posted previously in this thread about my experience in firearm sales and agree with most of what's being posted. Here's where I still struggle:
Trying to educate someone who seeks education, but you can see that they're taking advice from poor sources (TOS, Uneducated LEO's, Mil, etc)
They've been told that _______ is "just as good as" __________ or maybe even better than. I guess it just comes down to realizing when they're not picking up what you're laying down and so you just let them choose to be wrong if that's what they're insisting upon.
Semper Paratus Certified AR15 Armorer
I was hesitant to post on this thread because how emotionally charged this type of issue becomes. I'm relatively new to the AR platform. My first purchase of an AR was 2 years, if i remember correctly. My local small town gun shop cuts me a deal for multiple reasons, so I was able to purchase a Stag for around 700 dollars through them. That's quite a good price point compared to a Colt and BCM gun. A 400 dollar difference is signifigant to a guy like me, with an entry level civil service job and a large chunk of college debt. I also know that not everyone out there can get that kind of deal, but i digress.
I dont have a mass amount of rounds through the gun, but the staking seems proper on the bcg and castle nut. The slop between the upper reciever and lower reciever is almost not existant. I've got friends who own Stags and Bushmasters, who've run hard courses with them and put alot of rounds through them. I've never heard them complain about their rifles.
I'm a bit of a hands on learner, so I've actually assembled a spikes/delton rifle for a friend based on a kit he bought. The gun has functioned very well up until this point. That gun was completed under 700 dollars. I refuse to speak in absolutes about any brand, but I think given that we live in the age of mass manufacturing, the only true test of whether your gun is up to par or not is actually shooting the thing a thousand times. In this very forum where BCM is held in extremely high regard, you can find posts about how someone's BCM gun is not fuctioning 100 reliably. Colt has been known in the past to produce guns that were not up to the quality that they are known for now. 6 years ago if you were to ask me what I felt was the best pistol on the market, I would have said Sig, but thier line of firearms currently baffles me and their quality control has deviated a bit. Several years ago, I was working in a gun shop and a woman brought in a Glock 19 that wouldnt even cycle a round properly due to some weird obstruction in the chamber of the gun.
I guess, to sum it all up, don't go out and buy an "Elitist" brand AR and think you have forever solved your rifle needs. No brand is the end all. Whatever you buy make sure it works and its always ok to make due with what you have. Wasnt the rifle that Travis Haley used on top of that building in Iraq in 2004 a Bushmaster? Do you think those guys on the recieving end of his fire cared about what roll marks were on the side of his gun?
I will step off my soap box now and say this. In my circle of friends and co-workers, I'm considered a "Tackleberry" type of person, so I get asked my opinion about quite a few things concerning firearms. The most recent AR I helped a friend assemble was a BCM which he bought on my recommendation. The fit and finish on the firearm is fantastic and everytime we've been to the range it's run like a champ. My next AR purchase will most definitely be a BCM.
I shaved my gasblock for this?
this is a great post. the only thing i might add though, is that i think it is quite dishonest when employees tell someone straight to their face a bold-faced lie. For example, when I was new to ARs the LGS guy told me that (and I quote) "There is absolutely no difference between a DPMS and a Colt other than the Colt has better resale and might have a few parts that are not interchangeable. With brands like Colt, you really are paying for the name."
I take issue with that. Now for my purposes (at the time) all I wanted was a cool looking gun to blast at the range and show my friends and the DPMS was just fine for that. But that doesn't make the information any more true. If the guy had said "You know, for what you intend to do, the DPMS will probably be fine. Spend the extra money on ammo." I would have been cool with that. But after a little research I learned the truth.
Shame on me for not knowing any better. And shame on him for handing me a line of shit, even if he didn't know any better either. It's one thing to not argue with a customer who knows it all and already has his mind made up. It's something else when you spread misinformation, either through lies or ignorance.
Last edited by LPMan59; 05-04-12 at 12:59. Reason: spelling
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