Active Shooters

[Moltke]

Context.

Things need context.


I am an active shooter because I shoot every Friday. I am not an active shooter who is gunning down kids at the movies.

If you mention there is an "active shooter" the immediate connotation is going to be different based on who you're talking to and the context of the conversation. To most people it is an immediate scary bad threat kind of thing because that's how they've heard it termed on the news, or in LE training.

[sboza]

I HATE that term. Yes, I know a word is needed for "person shooting a shit-ton of people who don't need to be shot" but the term "active shooter" smacks of NLP or deliberate framing of the discussion to automatically perceive an 'active shooter' (which many of us here are) as a criminal. It's a piece of socio-linguistic programming that helps with the automatic mental framing of shooters as criminals, especially with law enforcement.

Now, don't bother flaming me with the 'it's just a word' stuff. If you think it's just a word, you don't understand psychological operations at all, or you're in on the joke itself.

All that being said - are you talking about as a LEO or as a private citizen? This has been hashed and rehashed here over and over again. It has basically come down to these points:

1) We have the guys who will charge in because they believe it's their moral duty to do so

2) We have the guys who will evacuate and only shoot in direct defense of themselves or someone in their party

3) We have the cops, who largely think that 1) and to a lesser degree 2) risk being shot by cops if they do anything at all other than run or lay on the ground with their heads covered up

4) then there's an argument between 1) and 2), then 3) comes in with a snarky comment and gets turned on by 1) and 2), then the discussion gets locked, someone in the 1) and 2) group gets either warned, locked, or banned.

Wash, rinse, and repeat every three months or so.

Have I covered everything?

You've done nothing other than to prove that you know less about active shooter response than the OP.

OP, I have to run but when I get a chance, I'll give you my 2 cents worth (minus any info violating opsec).

[QuietShootr]

You've done nothing other than to prove that you know less about active shooter response than the OP.

OP, I have to run but when I get a chance, I'll give you my 2 cents worth (minus any info violating opsec).

Right, that's exactly what I've done :-) You've outsmarted me again.

[thundergun61]

I think some people have missed the point I was trying to give. As far as "active shooter" goes I am referring to a gang member shooting at a rival gang and people get caught up in the crossfire, or a deranged man lights up a bunch of kids on a college campus, or some kids go on a shooting spree in a mall. These are the types of "active shooters" I am talking about.

The next issue I would like to clear up is that in this instance you had to use your firearm and you can't dance around the issue and say, "i would avoid that situation." Bad shit happens that you simply can not avoid even when you try. This is a hypothetical situation to think about what to do after you had the unfortunate event of shooting someone. How would you talk to the 911 operator? What would you say? Would you flag a first responding LEO because of the adrenaline or just holster up and leave? Or would you try to save an innocent civilian who has been shot, if you had medical experience (which I believe many people should seriously consider if they carry or shoot a firearm)?

We train all the time in weapons manipulation, shooting fast and accurately. I think sometime we get to focus on the shooting aspect itself that we forget or neglect the events that transpire after a shooting. I just wanted to look at it from a different approach.

[sboza]

OP, at first I was going to dismiss you as just another dude lacking knowledge and experience. You can fix the knowledge part by searching the forum more, active shooter response has been extensively addressed. But on a second assessment, I realized that 95% of shooters are probably in your shoes and at least you are trying to start a conversation, albeit from a very naive pov.

This is the civilian student active shooter policy for a university which my girlfriend is attending for her masters degree. It is very well written and addresses most of the important considerations for civilians and it is adaptable to a number of active hooter scenarios:

When there is a threat of criminal violence or an emergency, it may be necessary for you to shelter-in-place. This precaution is to enhance your safety while you remain in your facility. Shelter-in-place means securing your current location by the use of locks, barricades, or means to restrict access to your location. When confronted with an active shooter or other life-threatening situation, remember the word "OUT!"


Get Out!
If you hear gunshots or are otherwise alerted to a life-threatening situation, determine if you can safely evacuate the facility.
If it is possible to do so, leave the facility by the closest exit.
Be prepared to respond to the commands of arriving law enforcement officers. Remember that responding law enforcement officers will not be able to tell the "bad guys" from the "good guys." Therefore, be prepared to respond to commands such as "show your hands" or "get on the ground."
Understand that law enforcement officers have been trained to respond to active shooters and other emergencies in a particular way. Do not argue with or ignore the commands from law enforcement officers. These officers issue these commands for their protection and the protection of others.
Remember that active shooters and other life-threatening incidents are rapidly evolving, fluid events. Public safety and University officials must often make split-second decisions in how they respond to events.
Go to a predetermined assembly point when you evacuate. This allows for the accountability for all individuals in classrooms or offices.
Do not re-enter a facility until allowed by a law enforcement officer or University official.


Call Out!

Regardless of whether you evacuate or shelter-in-place, call for help.
Call the University's emergency number at (deleted) or the (deleted) Emergency Management Office at 911.
Be prepared to stay on the telephone line and give your location, a description of the events and their location, and what you see or hear. Also, give your name and telephone number.


Hide Out!

If you cannot safely evacuate an area, then you should shelter-in-place.
Stay low to the ground and conceal yourself behind desks or other objects. Understand that concealment is not cover and that bullets may penetrate walls, desks, and other objects.
If possible, hide behind large desks or other large objects.
Cover windows so a shooter cannot see into a room.
Turn out the lights so that people and objects in the room are not illuminated.
Unless you are calling for help, turn off your cellular telephone and other noise-emitting objects that can reveal your location.


Keep Out!

Secure your room by locking the door.
If you cannot lock the door, barricade access by placing a large desk or other object that restricts access to your location. If necessary, stack furniture against the door.
If necessary, two or more people can hold a table or desk against a door to prevent entry.
Keep the room secured until law enforcement officers arrive to evacuate you.


Take Out!

Do not be passive regarding your safety. If a shooter enters your area, be prepared to take him or her out!
Remember that the only thing a shooter cares about is shooting people.
Be prepared to move to action. While a shooting event is terrifying, do not let panic and fear control you. One person moving to action can motivate others.
Do not accept that you are a victim. Do something to facilitate your survival.
Use books, chairs, and other objects that can be thrown or used to distract or incapacitate a shooter.
Yell, scream, kick, and punch at the shooter. A shooter may not be prepared for someone fighting back and these actions can take him or her by surprise.
Work with others in the room to "gang tackle" a shooter and hold him or her until help arrives.


Other Considerations:

Listen to the radio, check for text messages, or monitor (deleted).
If you are outside, take cover until it is safe to enter a facility.
During an emergency, access to certain areas of campus may be restricted. Do not intentionally go to a part of campus where an emergency is occurring. Be aware that some roads may be closed. Wait until you are notified that it is clear to enter the affected area.
Unless you are calling for help, do not use your cellular telephone. Responding public safety officials may need to use the cellular telephone for emergency communications. Too many callers can overwhelm the cellular telephone tower and prevent emergency communications.


This hits most of the major points. I am not going to say anything about what a le response looks/should look like because I sincerely believe that that information, particularily with multiple bg's, allows bg's to plan ambushes. There is already too much info out there in the open source.

A lot of the rest comes down to common sense and experience. If you absolutely have to fight, fight. As for muzzling responding officers and such, yeah, it happens and you can get shot for it. Situational awareness and the ability to think and figure things out quickly in a chaotic environment are key here. This is where the average dude takes a big hit because he hasn't experienced this level of stress frequently. With enough exposure, the able person can be in stressful situations without a crazy elevated heart rate, auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, etc... The more you go there, the better you can handle it. All the hypotheticals in the world aren't gonna substitute for experience. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the average dude isn't gonna get that.

Just remember, whenever you draw your gun as a civilian or dressed in civilian attire, there is a chance that you will do everything right and still be shot by responding officers. The risk can be mitigated by above stated factors, but it is always there. If you cannot accept this, don't draw your gun.

Piece of advice, don't dress like a shithead. Looking respectable can buy you the second or two in which the responding officers may give you the benefit of the doubt to drop your weapon (although nothing is gonna help if you are pointing your gun at officers). It may not be fair but it is human nature (and common sense).

I'll let those more knowledgeable then me handle medical equipment but I keep a cat tourniquet in my center console and basically an ifak in the trunk (packed loosely in a small box, not a pouch). Less important but a few sam splints in the trunk also.

Bottom line is to get away if at all possible, stay and fight only when absolutely necessary. Don't do stupid shit like call 911 while still waving your gun around "scanning." Threat down, quick scan for other threats, holster and move to cover (or move to cover and then holster), now take a deep breath and call 911. You don't have anyone covering you so don't go to disarm the downed bad guy unless you deem it absolutely necessary under the circumstances (that ability to think on ones feet) and keep booby traps on the body in mind.

Nothing is easy when you're on your own and it's even harder when you have people to protect (say family members).

Hope that answers some of your questions.

ETA - I'm sure folks far more knowledgeable than me will respond soon.

[sboza]

Assuming that you are a Civy, the answer is for you to get OUT (especially if you are with your family). Even if your family is NOT with you, they are depending on you to come home so again, get out!

Remember that you are not the P O L I C E and it isn't your job to defend other people.

So with that out of the way, you won't be going back to your vehicle to grab your long gun. You will be getting in, calling 911 and driving away from there!

Now for the fantasy part. You are trapped in a building with a terrorist (just like in Die Hard). A pistol is what you have on you. What to do:

1. Call 911 and give an accurate description of yourself and what is going on inside the building.
2. Give them as much intel as possible; number of shooters, where they are, type(s) of weapons, number of injured people, etc.
3. Do a quick (real) estimation of your ability. As in, if all the training you have ever had is basic NRA pistol, SIT STILL!
4. If you have had more training than Rambo, venture out and deal with the bad guys. The minute you kill one of them (and they have a long gun) take that weapon (battlefield pickup)!
5. Remember that the Police are not going to know you from the bad guy and will most likely shoot you! So as soon as the death dealing has been completed, put down all visible weapons, get into a safe place, call 911 and tell them where you are and what you are wearing (again).


The above was written in a "tongue and cheek" sort of way so please do not follow any of the "scenario" advice I have given.



C4

I don't think venturing out to solve problems that can be avoided is a great idea for the guy (not saying you, I don't know you) who takes a bunch of open enrollment classes, has never been formally trained in CQB (and I don't mean a two day class with two man clears or a hd class), has never fought in a CQB environment, has never been in a gunfight, and has no duty to act and thus no legal protection for doing so. I honestly think that is just asking for trouble. That said, I don't think anyone here is going to stand by when people are being actively mowed down right in front of them (gotta look at that as an imminent threat anyways). But if you hear gunfire at the other end of the mall, I don't care if you know how to do a 2 man "dynamic" clear in a training environment or if you stayed at a Holiday Inn last night, you better think long and hard about seeking out the shooter(s).

[thundergun61]

@ sboza Great post. Alot of good points and info. Naive maybe, but it is a general question that I believe gets overlooked quite often. I too agree that LE procedures should not be discussed. I'm just trying to put this discussion in the responsible citizen or off duty/plain clothes LEO pov as what to do after so you still make it out of that situation alive.

Just remember, whenever you draw your gun as a civilian or dressed in civilian attire, there is a chance that you will do everything right and still be shot by responding officers. The risk can be mitigated by above stated factors, but it is always there. If you cannot accept this, don't draw your gun.

Getting shot is a risk we all take when we make the decision to carry a firearm, but it doesn't mean we can't start to think about as many things we can do to limit that from happening as much as possible. If you do get shot, it's a really important to know how to solve that problem and "fix" yourself. If you don't know how to, then it would be a really good idea to look into taking a medical class.

[C4IGrant]

I don't think venturing out to solve problems that can be avoided is a great idea for the guy (not saying you, I don't know you) who takes a bunch of open enrollment classes, has never been formally trained in CQB (and I don't mean a two day class with two man clears or a hd class), has never fought in a CQB environment, has never been in a gunfight, and has no duty to act and thus no legal protection for doing so. I honestly think that is just asking for trouble. That said, I don't think anyone here is going to stand by when people are being actively mowed down right in front of them (gotta look at that as an imminent threat anyways). But if you hear gunfire at the other end of the mall, I don't care if you know how to do a 2 man "dynamic" clear in a training environment or if you stayed at a Holiday Inn last night, you better think long and hard about seeking out the shooter(s).

I don't disagree. To take it further, I would actually argue that someone that is well versed in two man/offensive room clearing (AKA CQB/CQC) not start clearing room to room either! Since the person is alone, they should be well versed in DEFENSIVE room clearing (which most LE and .Mil are NOT trained well in).

As for me, I am a lowly Civy and a student of defensive room clearing (logged over 100 hours in shoot houses doing it). So I would venture out and find the "bad man" and make them stop.


C4

[sboza]

I don't disagree. To take it further, I would actually argue that someone that is well versed in two man/offensive room clearing (AKA CQB/CQC) not start clearing room to room either! Since the person is alone, they should be well versed in DEFENSIVE room clearing (which most LE and .Mil are NOT trained well in).

As for me, I am a lowly Civy and a student of defensive room clearing (logged over 100 hours in shoot houses doing it). So I would venture out and find the "bad man" and make them stop.


C4

Ha, very true . But I have to say that I would take the guy that's done it wrong, but done it, over a guy that trains a lot but is untested. Ideally, of course, we would have someone with both the right training and real world experience. But you do bring up a good point, one man defensive clearing is certainly a different animal and needs to be trained in it's own right.

I was joking about the 2 man offensive clearing because a couple guys I know went through a two day class and they covered it a bit. They came back thinking they were freaking assaulters and it just made me laugh.

It does bother me when reputable instructors teach offensive clearing (even at this very rudimentary level) to folks without creds, vetting, and need. I know you disagree but it rubs me the wrong way and crosses into a grey area. I have nothing against hd and defensive two man clears although 2 man defensive clearing seems like an unlikely scenario in the home but I suppose that is girlfriend/wife dependent.

But yeah, proper one man defensive clearing is an incredibly important skill, particularly for LE. It's a shame it isn't taught (or taught well). Hopefully that will change one day.

[a0cake]

These discussion of whether to confront the assailant with force or not gets a little dicey because there is no standard "cookie-cutter" answer, which I think you understand. Obviously, there are an almost infinite number of variables in play, the greatest of which is you and I. We can dissect these situations ad-nauseum; you can sit here and talk about it for hours. In the end, you either have the right stuff or you don't. Either you have the level of training and proper mindset necessary to be an asset who will save lives in a situation like this, or you will be a liability who, upon taking action, will at best not help the situation, and at worst get more people hurt and killed. Despite the internet bravado, I think most people know which category they fit into and will act accordingly when the time comes.


What to do after the shooting stops is a more accessible question.

If by "after the shooting stops" you mean that there is no longer an imminent threat (and you are reasonably certain of it), then triaging and treating patients in the order of precedence until EMS arrives would be the first priority, assuming that you have medical training. If not, you'll likely make matters worse.

If by "after the shooting stops" you mean that there is a lull in firing, but there may still be hostile personnel in your general vicinity, then clearly improving the immediate security situation of everyone under your span of control / sphere of influence is priority.

I understand that these are vague answers, but they can't be anything buy vague by nature of the question.

In the end, you'll either know what to do and how to do it or you won't...and I truly don't believe reading and talking about it online is what will make the difference (I'm not saying you can't learn anything through discussion, just that it's not enough in and of itself).

PS - QuietShootr, I agree that we need to be mindful of language and choose our words with precision. I don't know the etymology of the phrase "Active Shooter," but I would bet that it was formed exogenously (of the shooting community). For an example of a similar debate for those who have no clue what myself and QS are talking about, think about the Dr. Kevorkian issue. One side of the debate referred to it as the "physician-assisted suicide" question. The other called it a "right to die" issue. Both terms essentially address the same question / concern, but a contemplative person can infer which camp another belongs to simply by which of the above phrases he or she chooses to use. Make sense?