thoughts and opinions on Nosler Ballistic tip bullets for Home defense??

[WS6]

Anything that liquiefies the heart/major vascular structures is effective. No dissent. Issues arise with non fully-frontal shots. If the only shot you have is through the bicep/shoulder, then the bullet must penetrate the shoulder, humerous, more muscle of the arm, fat and muscle around the rib-cage, the ribcage, the lung, and significant portions of the heart/major vascular structures. This is where the requirement for a minimum of 12" of penetration comes from.



A ballistic tip may cause more damage to a limb than other types, but it may not. Even the robust M-47 AK round can cause massive damage to limbs despite their non-fragmentary performance (see this link). Either way, damage to limbs cannot be relied upon as a stopper. Even significant blood loss from a severed brachial artery may take hours to cause incapacitation (Hemorrhagic Shock).

Gunshots themselves are not instantly painful or unbalancing enough, especially when the victim is under the influence of alcohol, drugs, or adrenaline, to promise incapacitation. Though most non-CNS single shot incapacitations are psychological, the phenominon is not reliable as a method of stopping.



This is true, multiple shots are better, but is outside the scope of the discussion, and is heavly dependant on the method of employment. One shot is all you might get.

If we are talking about use inside a residence, the average shot distance will be measured in feet, not yards. Consider that an average man can cover 7 yards (21 feet) in 1.5 seconds. If that man begins closing with you, as you make the decision to fire, you just lost about .2-.3 seconds to identify, decide, and act. Sweeping the safety and raising the muzzle will take you another .1-.2 seconds. Establishing some kind of sight picture will take another .1-.3 seconds. This leaves you with 1.1 to .7 seconds (with times that are assuming a high degree of proficiency with no performance degredation under stress) before the aggressor will be physically occupying the space you are, during which time you say you are going to assess the shot's effectiveness.

Since the muzzle of a 16" carbine is about 2'-3' from your actual position, the BG will be inside the muzzle in even less than 1.5 seconds. Now just imagine you are actually at room distances, which will be about 10'.

The times needed are not just to get off a shot, but to incapacitate the threat.

The shot after the assessment may be 5 pounds away, but it will be about 1/2 second too late.

Of course, the same argument could be used for any type of round, but shots that penetrate the heart have a much higher incidence of rapid incapacitation than any other non-CNS shot. Either way, count on shooting until the threat drops.

I agree with what you have stated, but let's be honest, inside a house the nastiest thing out there is a load of #1 buck-shot from a 12 ga.

Trying to pick which .224" round is most effective is an academic discussion at best when all can all agree (ok, I am sure someone won't...) that the 12ga is the king in CQ.

I would like to look at your scenario though. You base the ENTIRE premise of needing ONE GOOD SHOT on the fact that your attacker will be closing distance and attacking you and thus possibly preventing another shot. If he doesn't close, you get more shots. If he does, he may be bigger/stronger and you wont get more shots, so that ONE had BETTER! count.

^THat is what you are saying, right?

Okay, my thought is this. Very few people cover their thoracic cavity or turn sideways when charging someone. Bang--soup.

[Failure2Stop]

Trying to pick which .224" round is most effective is an academic discussion at best when all can all agree (ok, I am sure someone won't...) that the 12ga is the king in CQ.

Picking which 5.56 round is more effective is more than academic, and a 12ga is outperformed by 5.56. I hope I am not coming off as argumentative here, but please bear with me.

Rifles work better than shotguns. The concept of the superiority of the shotgun was born out of the old west and WWI. Shotguns are more effective than .45 pistols. Shotguns were better than bolt-action rifles in trench-clearing. But shotguns were found to be limited in their effectiveness, thus creating the need for the SMG for trench-clearing. Shotguns are not as precise as rifles, even at short distances, and do not cause as much damage to tissue as good 5.56 rounds.

Different 5.56 performs, well, differently. Some penetrate very deeply with no (or very little) fragmentation, such as the DPX. Some yaw and fragment very rapidly (such as the 40gr varmint types). Both give different wound profiles, as they were built to do different things. Most certainly different users require different performance. A Prairiedog shooter needs the rapid upset to tear the vermin to tiny pieces, ensuring a humane kill. A deer hunter needs deep penetration to ensure that the bullet pierces the heart and lungs and exits, to provide a blood trail. The deer hunter knows that the deer is probably going to run for a bit even after taking one through the heart. Not a problem, because the incidence of lethal-threat deer is sufficiently low that the hunter does not actually need to drop the deer instantly.

For good result in the two-legged variety, we need a bullet that is somewhere in between the two extremes. And even with that, there are differing needs. What works for a traffic cop to get through automobile glass is not what a SWAT cop needs for hostage rescue, and neither is what an average PFC needs in Ramadi.

If you look at what knowledgable professionals recommend for use, none of it is lightweight varmint. 55gr is where the loads start to perform as needed, but certainly not all 55gr ammo meets the requirements.

We match the ammo to the need.

You base the ENTIRE premise of needing ONE GOOD SHOT on the fact that your attacker will be closing distance and attacking you and thus possibly preventing another shot. If he doesn't close, you get more shots. If he does, he may be bigger/stronger and you wont get more shots, so that ONE had BETTER! count.

I was going to do a longer topic on this, but my post length was reaching critical mass. I understand where you are coming from in your response, but omission of more scenarios does not invalidate the issue.

I was applying too much pressure with the response, thus giving the intial statement far too much weight in the discussion.

I was addressing the issue with single shots. At the bottom of the post I noted that you should plan on shooting the threat to the ground. It was a response to the "shoot/assess/shoot" concept that was brought up, linked to the issue with compressed time/space.

Engagement technique in a terminal effects discussion is misplaced. We should always plan to shoot until the threat ceases all hostile actions. This observation should be made in the .2 seconds between shots. It is primarily indicated by the target dropping out of sight picture.

I should have better written my response, but I was just typing through an explaination without properly planning the response.

Okay, my thought is this. Very few people cover their thoracic cavity or turn sideways when charging someone. Bang--soup.

No, but their weapon will most likely be extended toward you, thus providing interference for the bullet. Further, any strikes not through the sternum will probably not travel deeply enough to reach critical areas.

Other case- the threat may be moving perpendicular to your vantage point (say toward a loved one), requiring an oblique/flank shot.

Still, seeing that heavier bullets perform just as well (or better) than the lightweights at close range, and reduce shallow penetration failures, why not go with a bullet that meets the FBI minimum criteria, as recommended by people that study this for a living?
>LINK<

[WS6]

Sorry for not quoting, but it would have been lengthy.

I can see your points in all areas, however, I still feel that a BT would do the job 95% of the time. For the other 5%, you have a point. To be honest though, 55gr FMJ is in the AR's that are kept loaded around the house and I have yet to meet someone who wanted to see if it would hurt or not.

[556]

May I suggest if an intruder is in your home un-invited with a weapon in hand.

The only reaction needed, should be by the intruder reacting to a BT already in flight..........

If target doen't react as desired, that leaves 1.35 seconds to launch 5 + more (skilled operator)................