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Thread: SBR 5.56 AR Piston or DI? 10.5" or 12?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by romanowe View Post
    Your post seems to be more of a testament to H&K's ability to produce high quality, high cost, highly reliable weapons than to pistons in general on SBR's. It's a fine weapon, an excellent choice.
    Good point, that would have to be the biggest issue with my viewpoint, my reference to HK was the only way I could speak from first hand piston experience rather than second hand sources. However HK's high quality, high cost, highly reliable performance is an indication that a piston AR can be just that...cost not so much I admit. Furthermore my "HK416" is only half German, the lower is 100% Red White and Blue.
    Last edited by justlikeanyoneelse; 05-28-12 at 18:35. Reason: Misclicked Post

  2. #22
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    My experience with the LWRC is limited to about 800 rounds. The run that I ran functioned fine, but two or three other test guns in Pat Rogers' class were having major problems. This was in 2008, and I have seen other LWRCs in classes since then that ran fine.

    True HK416s are great. I have 2 uppers. But they cost absurd amounts of money and I would not recommend them for the average user.

    If I were building an AR SBR, I would go with a Bravo Company 11.5" upper as the most affordable option. I've seen several people explain on line that the 11.5" seems to avoid the pitfalls of the shorter barrelled versions and run more reliably out of the box without tweaking. These posts were written by people like Pat Rogers. I am sure people here who have more experience than me with SBR DI ARs can add their persepectives.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Many proponents of the GP operating system point to a series of tests conducted by the US Military which are generically referred to as the "dust chamber tests". In these tests the Colt M4 (drawn from current inventory), Heckler and Koch XM8, Fabrique Nationale SCAR, and Heckler and Koch 416 were subjected to excessive amounts of dust before being test fired according to a protocol and malfunctions recorded. The M4A1 had the most malfunctions in both tests which most often gets blamed on the DGI operating system. Subsequent to these tests, however, and far less publicized, is an independent study commissioned by Colt (and mentioned in the article "What Really Happened at Wanat" by Kirk Ross for the US Naval Institute) in which the M4 actually had less malfunctions than any other tested firearm, as well as a susequent test in which the Colt Close Quarters Battle Receiver (with DGI operating system) out-performed the piston-operated HK 416.
    It did not outperform the HK416 (which is still being used by this nations' most elite unit and has been for like 8 years).

    This test that Rob refers to was not a retest and it wasn’t a competitive test that featured the designs that had previously outperformed the M4.

    It was a private company who Colt paid to do a test and he M4 malfunction numbers they got were way out of wack from from what the M4 had achieved on two previous tests.

    They tested the Colt M4 alone under what they *claim* was similar conditions, but really were of their own creation. They also did not retest any of the other manufacturers carbines guns that did better than the M4 under the same conditions that they retested the M4 and achieved a miraculous 111 stoppages/malfuctions.

    Here is the results of the original dusttest that ran 60,000 rounds through 10 examples of each gun. Below is the number of malfunctions:

    XM8: 127 stoppages/malfunctions
    Mk16 SCAR-L: 226 stoppages/malfunctions
    HK416: 233 stoppages/malfunctions
    M4 Carbine: 882 stoppages/malfunctions

    If you look at earlier dusttest that featured the M4 alone:
    http://www.militarytimes.com/news/20...cation_070716/ you see that the M4's rate of failures under heavy lubrication for the 60,000 rounds was 678. This is considerably better than the dust test where it came in forth with 882 stoppages/malfunctions, but still almost three times as many stoppages as the next higher competitor.

    Then Colt pays a private company to do a dust test without including the designs that outperformed it and the M4 amazingly has only 111 malfunctions.

    I am a big fan of the DI AR, having 3 DI uppers last time I checked. But I don't buy the numbers in this improved test.
    Last edited by Ed L.; 05-29-12 at 03:56. Reason: spellling

  3. #23
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    I don't buy those numbers either, sounds to me Colt trying to cover some really bad press. What I found ironic is that Colt lists its own Piston rifle called the "Colt Advanced Piston Carbine (APC)." Which indicates even Colt realizes the potential for a piston system.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by justlikeanyoneelse View Post

    - Army conducted a dust test with the M4, XM8, SCAR, and HK416...yea the M4 (AR) was really reliable there don't ya think? As a matter of fact I think it was IraqGunz on this forum who mentioned the Delta guys he saw at a FOB loved their HK416s.

    - Devgru and Delta adopted the HK416...they obviously know a thing or two about warfare so a piston system can't be all too bad.

    - SOCOM has been selecting piston systems more and more lately. Up until recently the FN SCAR Light and Heavy. HK416 for Delta and Dev.

    - More and more prominent firearm makers are going the piston route. To name a few, (FN and HK.) Shoot I even saw colt with their own piston system.
    Maybe this doesn't bother anyone else but me, but what are your sources on Delta and DevGru's weapons and their usage? You stated that you're a civilian and haven't presented anything that makes me believe you have any affiliation with either group. That being said, these points mean nothing, and at least for me, hinder your argument. I spend a lot of time around a guy who is pretty experienced in different military and firearms circles and he said that his unit didn't run the 416 because they got it to break (or fail, I don't remember which). I'm not saying Delta/Team 6 does or does not use it, but unless you actually know from first or the very least, reliable second-hand experience (IG's reference applies here), don't throw it in a debate.

    And just because everyone is doing it doesn't necessarily mean its an improvement. EOTech made a bio-hazard reticle in one of their optics. That doesn't mean that zombie themed kit is the best shit out there, it just means that they think it'll sell.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    If you're not going to shoot the SBR unsuppressed, there's no reason for the piston or the Switchblock. Just get a 16" barrel and have it cut down to the length you want. This also frees you up to match the barrel length to the handguard you want to use. So if you're planning on using a 10.0 handguard you can cut the barrel to 11" to clear the can and mount. If you're wanting to use an 11.0 handguard, you can cut the barrel to 12" to clear the can and mount.

    On a dedicated host, the alleged benefits of the piston system are even further negated.
    Rob, what do you mean by this? I thought the Switchblock made a DI run cleaner and more reliably suppressed? Why would running it suppressed 100% of the time negate the need for it?
    Last edited by Wake27; 05-28-12 at 21:18.
    Sic semper tyrannis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    Maybe this doesn't bother anyone else but me, but what are your sources on Delta and DevGru's weapons and their usage? You stated that you're a civilian and haven't presented anything that makes me believe you have any affiliation with either group. That being said, these points mean nothing, and at least for me, hinder your argument. I spend a lot of time around a guy who is pretty experienced in different military and firearms circles and he said that his unit didn't run the 416 because they got it to break (or fail, I don't remember which). I'm not saying Delta/Team 6 does or does not use it, but unless you actually know from first or the very least, reliable second-hand experience (IG's reference applies here), don't throw it in a debate.
    Their usage of the HK416 is a well acknowledged fact by people like Larry Vickers. I've also interacted with other current and former members and other people in the system.

    If the gun was 1/4 as bad as some people have claimed, the gun would have been a flash in the pan and never adopted or dropped immediately.
    Last edited by Ed L.; 05-28-12 at 22:21.

  6. #26
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    Regarding the 11.5" barrel DI upper for an SBR, I remember Paul Buffoni of Bravo Company stating that they found it to run more trouble free than the 10.3" versions.

    I also remember Dean Caputo, who equipped his PD with the 11.5" Colt SBRs, stating that the 11.5" version was more reliable and troublefree than the 10.3" version. Both were posted on Lightfighter. I will see if I can find a link to them. The search feature on Lightfighter doesn't seem to be working at the moment
    Last edited by Ed L.; 05-28-12 at 22:24.

  7. #27
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    Lots of good debate guys and I appreciate the responses. The debate back and forth shows what I myself have been doing in my own mind which prompted me to ask you guys your thoughts.

    I purchased one of the first LMT piston AR's and while it was a good rifle I sold it and replaced all my rifles with Noveske rifles over a few years. I didn't see much advantage in the LMT piston and didn't like that it was a rifle that didn't share well with my DI rifles as in parts etc.

    The reason I have thought about one for the SBR is people say they are more reliable, Larry Vickers has said several times in articles I have read that he feels an SBR AR in a piston version from HK is more reliable than the DI system, he also feels the HK in SBR is the best one out there, so this has made me think a bit more it might be the direction to go. Also, I figure since I plan on shooting it suppressed 99% of the time the DI might get a lot more dirty with the suppressor making the HK piston a better choice. I plan on taking it to training and with my Noveske rifles I can run a 4-9 day training course with 1,000 plus rounds and don't have to clean them and they have always been 100% reliable. With that being said I haven't run any of them suppressed yet. My stamp for the M4-2000 should be here sometime in July so all the rounds have been non suppressed.
    Last edited by dtibbals; 05-28-12 at 23:51.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed L. View Post
    Their usage of the HK416 is a well acknowledged fact by people like Larry Vickers. I've also interacted with other current and former members and other people in the system.

    If the gun was 1/4 as bad as some people have claimed, the gun would have been a flash in the pan and never adopted or dropped immediately.
    Fair enough, I know I've heard it all over the place. It was nothing against the gun or anything, it just came off as, "the news said Delta use it so it must be awesome."
    Sic semper tyrannis.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wake27 View Post
    Maybe this doesn't bother anyone else but me, but what are your sources on Delta and DevGru's weapons and their usage? You stated that you're a civilian and haven't presented anything that makes me believe you have any affiliation with either group. That being said, these points mean nothing, and at least for me, hinder your argument. I spend a lot of time around a guy who is pretty experienced in different military and firearms circles and he said that his unit didn't run the 416 because they got it to break (or fail, I don't remember which). I'm not saying Delta/Team 6 does or does not use it, but unless you actually know from first or the very least, reliable second-hand experience (IG's reference applies here), don't throw it in a debate.

    And just because everyone is doing it doesn't necessarily mean its an improvement. EOTech made a bio-hazard reticle in one of their optics. That doesn't mean that zombie themed kit is the best shit out there, it just means that they think it'll sell.
    1. If you did not know Delta and Dev use the HK416 you have been living under a rock. Let me help you expand your horizons, contact or read the following please,

    - Larry Vickers (Primary)
    - IraqGunz (Primary)
    - Army Times, Article "Better than the M4 but you Can't have one." (Secondary)
    - Military Times, Article "Senator Tells Army to Reconsider M4," half way in the article it mentions Dev. (Secondary)
    - Army Times, Article "The 416, Delta Force has them, why not?" (Secondary)
    - Army Times, Article "Army takes HK416s from special unit," in it it mentions the AWG fought hard to keep their 416s/. (Secondary)
    - Numerous pictures of American forces with 416s.
    - Should I list more "reliable second hand sources" sir?

    2. Who I am has nothing to do with this discussion, whether people think I was in the military or not is up to them, this is just a forum. However I am just like anyone else.

    3. Two of my best buds are enlisted marine corp, ones about to be discharged and the other is still in, both with time in iraq and stan. We shoot, drink, bbq, and if they weren't in the military we'd be room mates...don't give me that "I know a military guy" line. All it does is it allows me to deduce you probably were never in the military. FYI the Marine Corp has the M27 IAR in field testing now.

    4. I loved the part "His unit didn't run the 416 because they got it to break or fail I don't remember which." LOL his unit must have ran some god-like rifles, can you tell me what rifles they went with, I would love to try and get my hands on one.

    5. Respectfully your zombie Eotech was a terrible example, here is why,

    - "And just because everyone is doing it doesn't necessarily mean its an improvement." This is true in an ideal world, in reality not so much. When Apple Inc. came out with their first Iphone, the Iphone had a touch screen interface. Was something wrong with manual click buttons? Of course not. However other major electronics companies like Samsung and Sony followed suit, because they knew if they didn't follow they would get left behind. Consequently, right now Samsung's Galaxy phone is probably the biggest competitor to the Iphone. Saying the piston system is horrible is like saying touch phones are crap because the glass face can be easily cracked.

    - Nobody claimed the zombie edition was the best holo sight, It's just a different reticule so I miss your point, feel free to enlighten me.

    - The price tags on these rifles are no where near justifiable from solely consumer profits, so I don't see a black Friday crowd waiting to buy them.

    6. I respect everyones' view, hell this is America you can say what you want, but please think about what you say before you say it.

    I hope this Piston/DI thread helps those who are thinking about getting a SBR, to dtibbals I root for the MR556, I cant speak for other piston makers but HK is ok!
    Last edited by justlikeanyoneelse; 05-29-12 at 02:42. Reason: Updated Source List

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by justlikeanyoneelse View Post
    1. If you did not know Delta and Dev use the HK416 you have been living under a rock. Let me help you expand your horizons, contact or read the following please,

    - Larry Vickers (Primary)

    He is a primary source. I respect him a lot and am not saying he's wrong or not at all involved, but he is not a current operator.

    - IraqGunz (Primary)

    Secondary source. He talked to Delta guys who loved theirs.

    - Army Times, Article "Better than the M4 but you Can't have one." (Secondary)
    - Military Times, Article "Senator Tells Army to Reconsider M4," half way in the article it mentions Dev. (Secondary)
    - Army Times, Article "The 416, Delta Force has them, why not?" (Secondary)
    - Army Times, Article "Army takes HK416s from special unit," in it it mentions the AWG fought hard to keep their 416s/. (Secondary)
    - Numerous pictures of American forces with 416s.
    - Should I list more "reliable second hand sources" sir?

    I know of service members who trust the Army Times and those that don't always. YMMV.

    2. Who I am has nothing to do with this discussion, whether people think I was in the military or not is up to them, this is just a forum. However I am just like anyone else.

    I was not attacking your character or profession or saying your opinion doesn't matter.

    3. Two of my best buds are enlisted marine corp, ones about to be discharged and the other is still in, both with time in iraq and stan. We shoot, drink, bbq, and if they weren't in the military we'd be room mates...don't give me that "I know a military guy" line. All it does is it allows me to deduce you probably were never in the military. FYI the Marine Corp has the M27 IAR in field testing now.

    I wasn't saying you have nothing to do with the military or anything like that. Good for you for having friends in the Marines that have deployed that you can shoot and drink with. Deduce whatever you like. And I've heard they're testing the M27 but thanks anyways.

    4. I loved the part "His unit didn't run the 416 because they got it to break or fail I don't remember which." LOL his unit must have ran some god-like rifles, can you tell me what rifles they went with, I would love to try and get my hands on one.

    Colt M4's.

    5. Respectfully your zombie Eotech was a terrible example, here is why,

    - "And just because everyone is doing it doesn't necessarily mean its an improvement." This is true in an ideal world, in reality not so much. When Apple Inc. came out with their first Iphone, the Iphone had a touch screen interface. Was something wrong with manual click buttons? Of course not. However other major electronics companies like Samsung and Sony followed suit, because they knew if they didn't follow they would get left behind. Consequently, right now Samsung's Galaxy phone is probably the biggest competitor to the Iphone. Saying the piston system is horrible is like saying touch phones are crap because the glass face can be easily cracked.

    I never said it was horrible.

    - Nobody claimed the zombie edition was the best holo sight, It's just a different reticule so I miss your point, feel free to enlighten me.

    The piston is just a different system.

    - The price tags on these rifles are no where near justifiable from solely consumer profits, so I don't see a black Friday crowd waiting to buy them.

    Not even sure what you mean by this one.

    6. I respect everyones' view, hell this is America you can say what you want, but please think about what you say before you say it.

    Please read what you're responding to.

    I hope this Piston/DI thread helps those who are thinking about getting a SBR, to dtibbals I root for the MR556, I cant speak for other piston makers but HK is ok!
    Anyways.
    Last edited by Wake27; 05-29-12 at 01:11.
    Sic semper tyrannis.

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