The workspace reload and matches

[bulbvivid]

Who did he "show it to?" In competition how fast you unload and holster isn't the "timed" portion of the match. Timed portion would be from the timers beep to the last shot fired. That guy "let" the competition mess him up. I carry a gun daily. I don't "unload and show clear", until the RO says "if you are finished unload and show clear", depending on his/her tone may be indicative that I forgot to shoot something..... target feedback and how my sight pictures looked determines how much the targets will get shot. In competition even under Virginia Count/Vickers Count (limited number of shots allowed on that course of fire) if I had a bad sight picture I'll make up the shot even if it'll cost me penalties, it's instinctual for me to not accept unacceptable accuracy.
This is probably why I'm still a B class shooter in USPSA in Production and Limited and IDPA Expert SSP. I'd rather be penalized in a match instead of giving up accuracy for speed.

There are Tier 1 guys who are competitors BTW.

I guess I could have been more specific. The way it was related to me, the guy dropped the mag, racked the round in the air and caught it, and then holstered up.

No need to get so argumentative with me though, I didn't say anything untoward about competition. glocktogo mentioned something about anecdotal evidence of detrimental actions due to habits gained in competition, so I presented some that I had heard, coming from someone I trust, and the information was pertinent to the discussion.

Your points are certainly valid and I don't disagree with them, but the tone is misguided.

[Robb Jensen]

My tone is fine. I was just explaining things because not everyone here has competed before and some may take comments a bit too literally.

FWIW today and yesterday I shot the 2012 USMC WTBn Combat Shooting Match. Much like the US Armys AMU The USMCs Combat Shooting Team is tasked with how to integrate the things that can make Marines shoot faster and more accurately. Their motto is "Competition Breeds Excellence". Just like the Marines I had to shoot with SAPI plates on and a helmet. We had to start one stage in a Huey UH-1, one in a LAV, and one in an up armored Humvee. The stage guns we had to shoot included a M40A5, M203, and a M240 along with our own rifle, shotgun and pistol.
I placed 8th (non-.mil) / 13th overall of 120 shooters.

[glocktogo]

Not that it matters, but one well-respected instructor related to me a story about a soldier in Iraq who got done working with his pistol and then instinctively went through the "unload and show clear" routine before holstering his empty pistol. He would have been walking around with an empty pistol had someone not pointed out his error.

FWIW, this is a "range/practice" mentality issue, not necessarily a competition training scar. I have to do the exact same thing when doing training or quals for the sheriff's office. You have to ingrain a "mode select" mentality. When you prep to leave the range or a room at the house where you dry fire, you need a rote method of "clicking on". As you ready your firearm for defensive duty, you should be readying your mind as well. This not only prevents you from going forth unprepared to deal with a situation, it prevents you from absentmindedly reverting to "range/practice mode" and suffering a negligent discharge.

[comprido]

Not that it matters, but one well-respected instructor related to me a story about a soldier in Iraq who got done working with his pistol and then instinctively went through the "unload and show clear" routine before holstering his empty pistol. He would have been walking around with an empty pistol had someone not pointed out his error.

Stranger things have happened. So, hell, this might have actually happened. But I'd go so far as to wager that for every 1 soldier that performed an unload and show clear after combat, there are 1000 that walked around without a round in the chamber because they were never taught one of the various ways to verify a round was stripped from the magazine and actually chambered. Or they flat out forgot to load. I'm not saying you can only learn that through competitions (though coming to the line and hearing a click after the beep once or twice tends to teach lessons, too). I'm saying you can throw the baby out with the bathwater if you let some anecdote like that keep you from competing. (I also agree this anecdote is more about a range mentality issue and not limited to competition shooting.)

I'd also wager that for every soldier or cop that performs an ULSC after an engagement, there are 5,000 whose marksmanship and weapons handling improve after being exposed to competitions. It has a way of motivating some folks, and shows people what works and what doesn't, among other things.

(Why do posters never seem to name these well-respected instructors that pass out valuable tidbits and anecdotes like this one? Not trying to be antagonistic, bulbvivid, but let me guess, you are going to decline to name this instructor.)

[JB326]

I'd also wager that for every soldier or cop that performs an ULSC after an engagement, there are 5,000 whose marksmanship and weapons handling improve after being exposed to competitions. It has a way of motivating some folks, and shows people what works and what doesn't, among other things.

Yep. My shooting has gotten tremendously better since I started into even just some basic, non-sanctioned matches at my local club. The squad I shoot in is mostly made up of other LEO's and our squad leader cuts us a little extra slack on some of the BS stuff simply so that we can handle things in as "realistic" a fashion as possible.

[rob_s]

The training scars you get from following the gun game "rules" are not worth it.

Can you please cite one case where an alleged "training scar" from "gun games" has gotten anyone killed "in real life"?

[Failure2Stop]

Can you please cite one case where an alleged "training scar" from "gun games" has gotten anyone killed "in real life"?

There is the old story about the officer that was found dead with empty casings from his 38 in his shirt pocket, linked to the training range. This is an old story, one that I have not personally verified, and is more about training scars than competition. And I am sure that any student of the gun is aware of it.

On the training scars side I do have verified information about a trainer from a South Africa that shot a student (fatally) while demonstrating a disarm technique. I think that it is more a testament to complacency than anything else, which I believe is the crux of the matter.

Under stress, people do what they are trained (or train themselves) to do out of familiarity. If the only training/practice one has is to immediately ULSC/drop hammer following completion, that's what they are likely to do when they go on autopilot.

I think that some training scars that do come from gun games are the pairs mentality, coming off target before the target is down, avoiding shooting through cover, and choosing gear that is only appropriate to certain games. I find that adopting a mindset of competitions as games and not as simulations of reality allows a more balanced approach to that which is a game and that which is a gunfight. Mindset (tm) plays a huge role, switching "on" is a requirement for consistent success in both realms.

I frequently inadvertently Tac reload after my scan and reholster my hot pistol when I shoot gun games. Right about the time I click the gun in I realize that I need to ULSC. As long as the RO doesn't freak (hasn't happened yet) it has yet to affect my score, and shooting gun games has yet to get me killed.


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[NCPatrolAR]

The brass in the pocket story is most often tied to the Newhall shooting that happened in Newhall, CA.

[Voodoo_Man]

There is the old story about the officer that was found dead with empty casings from his 38 in his shirt pocket, linked to the training range. This is an old story, one that I have not personally verified, and is more about training scars than competition. And I am sure that any student of the gun is aware of it.

On the training scars side I do have verified information about a trainer from a South Africa that shot a student (fatally) while demonstrating a disarm technique. I think that it is more a testament to complacency than anything else, which I believe is the crux of the matter.

Under stress, people do what they are trained (or train themselves) to do out of familiarity. If the only training/practice one has is to immediately ULSC/drop hammer following completion, that's what they are likely to do when they go on autopilot.

I think that some training scars that do come from gun games are the pairs mentality, coming off target before the target is down, avoiding shooting through cover, and choosing gear that is only appropriate to certain games. I find that adopting a mindset of competitions as games and not as simulations of reality allows a more balanced approach to that which is a game and that which is a gunfight. Mindset (tm) plays a huge role, switching "on" is a requirement for consistent success in both realms.

I frequently inadvertently Tac reload after my scan and reholster my hot pistol when I shoot gun games. Right about the time I click the gun in I realize that I need to ULSC. As long as the RO doesn't freak (hasn't happened yet) it has yet to affect my score, and shooting gun games has yet to get me killed.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

All good info.

I have personally experienced many "issues" of "gun games" transferring over to real life.

Some guys I work with shoot at local matches and that is all they do, other than their yearly qualification. So as F2S stated, messing up the use of cover, walking around with an empty gun, failing to press check, I will not even talk about "scanning" or any sort of reload.

F2S hit the nail on head here, mindset is what the real difference is. In many matches I have shot in, after I am done my string of fire, and I have no more loaded mags, I transition to blade and scan. I have been yelled at (and I am not the only one) for doing it, "this is not the place for that." Or my favorite "we have no time for this." Around here if I tac-reloaded at the end of a stage I would probably get DQ'd as they are real finicky about that. I have had numerous discussions with organizers (locally) of IDPA-styled matches and they all have said relatively the same thing. This is not "training" and therefore there is no need for scanning, transitions or tac reloads, amongst other things, unless the stage requires it.

I could not help to think that in real life there is no buzzer, there is RSO standing behind you and there is no one who told you the course of fire before hand.

[HackerF15E]

Who coined this term and what does it describe?

I first heard it from the Haley/Costa Magpul videos (although I don't have the depth of experience in "tactical" shooting to know if it predates them -- I certainly never heard that in my meager USAF training, but that doesn't mean much).

The "workspace" describes the technique of bringing the firearm in to approximately a foot away from your face, muzzle about 30 or 40 degrees up, and rotated 45-60 degrees sideways, in order to get the controls for a reload, malfunction clear, etc, in line with the horizon, such that you can keep your eyes downrange, monitoring threats, etc.