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Former Member
and let's be honest, this one is 99% of the measure for most of the knockoff buyers, and the rest are stand-ins for bullshit reasons to justify that 99%.Originally Posted by HMC
and it does not come with tradeoffs. If you don't see them, and you're happy with your knockoffs, then motor on.
Senior Member
Rob, I know that I'm not going to change your mind and won't even waste my time trying. I have a lot of respect for you and your knowledge on ARs and related gear, but you even admitted that you don't know much about light technology (and don't care to try).
As a member of M4C for the last few years, I've become familiar with your viewpoints and tendencies. This isn't meant in a condescending way, just an observation I've made and your behavior is, well, predictable... For example, every time there is a light related conversation, you go on a rant about light geeks or 100 function disco lights (seriously, you do) and frankly, it gets old. I have no intention on getting into a tit for tat with you, but I'm going to answer some of the questions you posed for the benefit of others reading and to clarify things.
To begin with, you're engaging in a ridiculous analogy with a howitzer versus an AR. No one is arguing that we need the light output of a NightSun (the spotlight on helicopters), which I'm mentioning to mock your ridiculous analogy. Current XM-L LED technology has LEDs producing ~750 lumens. I am talking about a light that produces only 420 lumens versus one that produces 200 lumens.
I thought the metrics relating to performance (in my post) were abundantly clear. If you would stop ranting, and read, I clearly stated that the Olight i6 Paladin puts out 420 lumens compared to a Surefire 6PX Tactical at 200 lumens. This has to do with total output. The performance can also be measured in the amount of throw (distance the light gets projected forward) or the amount of flood (the amount a light distributes its beam into an area). In my experience, the Olight i6 Paladin out-performs the Surefire 6PX Tactical in both these areas.
For the record, the Surefire P2X Fury on sale for about $110-$120 was at the top of my list. I would have bought 2 if it had all the features I wanted. It's Surefire (so I can say I'm cool), has 500 lumens (MOAR!!!
), but requires two clicks to get to high power. After previously playing around with a friend's Surefire 6PX Pro, I decided the 2 click BS wasn't for me.
I live on one-third of an acre. Behind my house is a large area of natural desert. It's pitch black out there at night. It is amazing the difference that 400 lumens makes versus 200 lumens on night walks around the neighborhood. I'm comfortable enough with a handheld ~400 lumens light for most things and am not looking for "MOAR". In the event that I don't want that much light, the bezel on the Olight can be turned an eight of a turn to get 80 lumens, which is equivalent to what an older G2LED output is. One click still equals one function.
Besides output, what else do we all care about in our lights? Durability, battery life, and ease of use seems to be some obvious choices.
Surefire has a hard-earned reputation for durability. There is no denying that they are the gold-standard for this. However, you also have up and comers like Elzetta kicking some ass (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=73356). Are my Olights as durable? I doubt it, but I don't know, and frankly, I don't care because they weren't purchased for that kind of abuse. Dennis, who I do not know personally, seems to be very knowledgeable/experienced with lights, and appears to be an LEO from his postings, didn't seem to have any issues with his. Markm, who I don't know personally either, but definitely seems to have his shit straight, swears by his Solarforces. At the end of the day, the bottom line is that these lights appear to work and are durable enough. Are they Surefires? No, but no one is claiming that nor are we deluding ourselves about what we are buying.
Regarding battery life, I'm not well versed in all the details so I'll refrain from getting too deep into it. I will say that the ability to use lithium ion AW18650 rechargeable batteries (longer runtimes) instead of primary 123s is a very attractive option. This option is NOT available in most, if not all, Surefires.
As for ease of use, let's just say that for most of our purposes, we are discussing a single click, single function light. Engaging in hyperbole regarding 100 function disco lights gets us nowhere, because it isn't the topic at hand and only serves to confuse everyone who isn't informed.
This thread is about viable alternatives to Surefire lights. A flashlight that produces more lumens at a lower price is relevant to this. Nobody is screaming for more options and modes so calm down.
Also, to set the record straight, regarding LED technology, Surefire has been behind the curve in innovation compared to these "Chicom" made lights. I'm not saying that we should all go out and buy these "Chicom" lights, but Surefire is allowing the "geek" market to fine tune their product line and to also research what works and doesn't work. This isn't a bad strategy as it allows others to make mistakes for you. Much of what Surefire is offering now, was already done a year or two ago by some lame ass Chinese company. Makes you wonder who really is doing the knocking off....
Even Surefire knows that the LEO/Mil market is asking for Li-ion recharge-ability and MOAR power: http://www.surefire.com/illumination...r1-lawman.html
You're over-generalizing. I know what matters to me and am able to articulate it. You, on the other hand, come off like someone who is overwhelmed by the options and technology in the current light market, and are unable to separate the wheat from the chaff. You purchased the wrong light model (poor research), got frustrated trying to make a light do what it wasn't designed to do, and swore off a whole segment of light manufacturers. Your snarky comments only serve to discourage people from learning about things and are a disservice to the M4C community.
If you have no desire to learn about this topic, no desire to be a student, step aside. For example, I made up my mind that the pistols I prefer to shoot are Glocks. They (usually) work, don't require me to "fiddle-****" with them, are durable, and are accurate enough. I don't go around taking dumps in threads where people are discussing other pistols, unless I have relevant knowledge or experience.
**For those who don't want or don't care to understand this topic, and who want a solid, well performing light, buy Surefire. You can't really go wrong.**
Everything is a tradeoff. Spending more money for marginal gains is also a tradeoff. Paying top dollar for a light that doesn't fulfill all the set criteria and requires two clicks to get it to turn on maximum, just because it says "Surefire" on the body, is also a tradeoff.
For example, not everyone looking to buy a variable 1-4x scope will buy a S&B Short Dot. Should we shun the other companies that came out with more affordable variable 1-4x scopes because they were knock-offs? No, we ended up having threads and discussions about the merits of each of the brands, while recognizing that the S&B Short Dot was the gold-standard.
I own both Surefire lights and "knock off" lights. They each serve their purposes and I'm capable of understanding the finer points. Motoring on......
Last edited by uwe1; 07-13-12 at 22:42.
Member
So... I shouldn't use an upgraded trigger in my AR unless I can give measurable metrics showing an increase in my performance, but if I do the same thing to show that one flashlight is better than another, then it's "bullshit reasons?"...bullshit reasons to justify...
2 years ago, I was shopping around for an EDC light. I wanted something small and light enough to clip in my pocket. I wanted at least 3 output levels - full power for outdoors and defensive use, low power for night-time map reading, etc, and something in the middle for "normal" flashlight uses. I wanted LED for the better battery life and shock resistance. Price was not a driving factor.
At the time, surefire did not have a light that met those requirements. But a number of other light makers did. I ended up with a Fenix PD30, and have been carrying it every day ever since, and using it hard. It has never not worked.
Since then, Surefire has re-vamped their product line. As far as I can tell, they still don't have a light that meets those requirements.
The models that come closest (but still fall short) are 3 times - not an exaggeration - fully 3 times the cost of the light that I got.
This is true, although IMHO is being generous to SF. Prior to their revamp last year, they were close to 10 years behind the curve. Now it's only about 5.Much of what Surefire is offering now, was already done a year or two ago by some lame ass Chinese company. Makes you wonder who really is doing the knocking off....
Member
None.
Member
Rob, this is the best assessment of geek related issues for a manufacturer I have ever read. In my company, we often get end-user demands from geeks that can cause our engineering to waste time, energy, and effort on useless development on things that turn out to be solutions looking for problems.
The problem with the regular guy versus the geek is that the regular guy is busy and won't tell you whether your product needs improvement or not. They may be very happy with it, but they are too busy doing their job and using it to mention anything, positive or negative. In their off-hours, they sure as hell don't want to waste time sending emails or calling a manufacturer. When you deal with their unit or agency, you deal with the management or finance who can care less about what the regular guy thinks, just as long as the product meets the budget.
Geeks on the other hand, seem to have more time than anyone and love to waste it by dreaming up some specs or creating some crisis that needs a resolution. Since they are vocal, if you don't get out of the bubble of your company, you think that the vocal Geek represents the opinion of every potential or current customer. That thinking is mostly bullshit, but it is easy for many to fall into that trap. Oftentimes, the engineers or marketing staff working at the manufacturer are geeks themselves and are happy to be willing participants in some other geek's folly in the search for something "moar". This just compounds the problem.
Your steps and longer blog post here are funny as a smell test to decide whether it is worthwhile to go down a path on a feature. If there’s a legitimate reason to respond to a legitimate need or weakness in the competition or the broader market; and doing it adds value, is better for all end-users, saves lives, saves the .mil/.gov money, drops costs, makes the product faster, easier to use, more flexible, etc., then yes. If it is just to add something for no apparent real world benefit except to pacify or appease the geek user who requests it, then no; it is just MOAR!
Your words are genius. Thanks for posting them.
I don't mean to threadjack or derail discussion on Surefire lights - there really isn't a great substitute for Surefire, they make a great product.
Senior Member
I absolutely love Streamlight. Between the PT-2L and TLR-1, i dont see the need for any other light in my inventory.
Would i consider buying another light someday? Yes.
Senior Member
Between me and other owners I know, I have seen more Streamlight tail switches fail prematurely compared to Surefire.
I don't care for Surefire's "momentary push/twist-for-constant-on". I prefer Streamlight's "momentary on or click for constant on", but I have seen enough Streamlight tail switches fail to make me stick to Surefire.
Senior Member
Besides owning 2 TLR1s and 2 TLR1Ss, I don't own any other Streamlight products. Luckily, none of mine have failed yet, but I can see how it might be possible with that rocker switch.
I didn't like the Surefire "momentary push/twist-for-constant-on" switch either and upgraded two of mine with the Surefire Z58 tailcaps. They're both rifle mounted. One of them has been on my training rifle for over 6K rounds and still functions perfectly.
Last edited by uwe1; 07-19-12 at 00:13.
Senior Member
These are some of the best reasoned posts in this thread.
For those looking to upgrade an old Surefire 6PL or G2L, Malkoff M60s and M61s are probably some of the most durable options available. The M60 is the LED unit utilized by Elzetta, the same light in that torture test video by Ares, but I don't believe it is being sold by Malkoff on the website.
From the testimonial on the Malkoff Devices website:
“We have tested, abused, jumped, dove, used in combat and thrown almost everything we can at these modules… we have modules with over 100,000 rounds of 5.56mm ammo on them! A true American product built by true Americans! We endorse this product from general daily use all the way to the worst riggers of combat operation.” -Travis Haley and Chris Costa Magpul Dynamics LLC
Member
5.11 light for life C cell size, Inova rechargeable. One of the surprising lights I've found is Led Lenser uses 3 AAA batts. I carried one 2005 -2011and it gave up. low cost batts long run time and been reliable used in Iraq 08-09. the one next to me right now has 3 years of use bright as a standard P60 I really know the one is none have seen many flash lights to die ..pelican lights about everyone I've had failed or flooded. EDC light is a Led Lenser or P60 w conv LED. I'm not convinced on the strobe functions I prefer on/ off modes
NRA Life Member.
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