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Thread: Zen of the 100 Yard Zero

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    You can go that way, and out to 100 it works just as well, but the trajectory past 150 starts to get well enough behind and below the FSP to make it difficult to achieve consistent good hits on anything but large stationary targets.

    It isn't an issue with the zero, it's simply the nature of the beast with irons. Optics generally do not have the issues with target obscuration and non-target focus, which makes them easier to apply offsets.

    If you do not have a need to shoot past 125 meters, I would not argue with having both sighting systems on the same (100 m) zero. I like to shoot out to 300 whenever I can, and zeroing irons 2 to 3 inches high at 100 lets me do that without needing to adjust my irons.

    I'm thinking about throwing another article together discussing the irons and the method to my mattresses. One of the reasons that I haven't is that Paul Howe already wrote about his method (3" high at 100) a few years ago (check CSATs website or do a search here and it should pop up), and like most things that Paul Howe writes it is concise, simple, and well illustrated. It was reading his article that pushed me to reevaluate what I was doing with irons.

    Another reason to do a 2-3" high at 100 meters is that it works well with an IBZ setup rear sight, so you retain the range capability of the A2 style rear sight or other range/drop compensating rear sights like the KAC and Matech.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
    First off thanks for the great write up and the heads up on where to find more explanation on the irons sights side of it. The only question I still have is in regards to CQB(inside the home) distances with the 2-3" high at 100 zero for an iron sighted gun. It seems under 25 yards your hold over would be 4-6"+ or am I missing something? If this is correct, using my gun for primaraly HD but still wanting to be able to hit out to 200 without playing with the sights would you recommend the 50-200 zero vs the 100? Thanks for the help.
    Last edited by greatnw; 06-21-12 at 13:03.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    If you do not have a need to shoot past 125 meters, I would not argue with having both sighting systems on the same (100 m) zero. I like to shoot out to 300 whenever I can, and zeroing irons 2 to 3 inches high at 100 lets me do that without needing to adjust my irons.
    Currently I'm an iron sight shooter. The load I use is a 55gr FMJ @ 2790fps from a 16 inch. Zeroed at 100y I've got a 3" drop at 200y, 7.5" drop at 250y, and 14.5" drop at 300y. Taking shots that long is basically coyote and crows on the farm where ~300y is the longest possible shot. I hold over a bit at 250 and 300. Looking to get an optic for the longer shots and keep the irons in place.
    I'm an FFL/gunsmith, not the holster company. We specialize in subsonic ammunition and wholesale rifles.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatnw View Post
    First off thanks for the great write up and the heads up on where to find more explanation on the irons sights side of it. The only question I still have is in regards to CQB(inside the home) distances with the 2-3" hold over at 100 for an iron sighted gun. It seems under 25 yards your hold over would be 4-6"+ or am I missing something? If this is correct, using my gun for primaraly HD but still wanting to be able to hit out to 200 without playing with the sights would you recommend the 50-200 zero vs the 100? Thanks for the help.
    It is not a 2-3" holdover at 100yards. The POA is 2-3" below the POI, which is 2-3" above where you are aiming. IOW you will be hitting 2-3" above your POA. It is essentially a bullseye type of zero, where you are aiming at the 6 o'clock of a 6" bullseye, with the bullseye resting on top of your front sight, and hitting dead center, 2-3" above, your POA.
    Formerly known as "Son of Vlad Tepes"

  4. #64
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    crh - On a B8 target i will try to stay in the center of the target. Granted a six 'oclock hold is easier to consistently pull off but with the M4 the object is to put the round into the black at various ranges when not shooting a blacked out target.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatnw View Post
    The only question I still have is in regards to CQB(inside the home) distances with the 2-3" hold over at 100 for an iron sighted gun. It seems under 25 yards your hold over would be 4-6"+ or am I missing something?
    Expanding on what Vlad said...

    You still won't be off more than the distance between the top of your front sight and the bore-axis with the irons zeroed that way. The closer you get to the target (from 25), it would be physically impossible for you to be "4-6"+" off, as you say, because there simply isn't enough elevation in the sights to make a difference. Check out the graphs in this thread to give you a better idea. You'll notice that none of the zeros, whether 25, 50 or 100 yards cause the round to ever go 'lower' than the distance between the front sight post and bore-axis before ~25 yards.

    Bottom line: Zeroing irons as FTS suggests won't make a difference for your CQB hold-offs.
    Last edited by kcmo83; 06-21-12 at 13:04.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Vlad Tepes View Post
    It is not a 2-3" holdover at 100yards. The POA is 2-3" below the POI, which is 2-3" above where you are aiming. IOW you will be hitting 2-3" above your POA. It is essentially a bullseye type of zero, where you are aiming at the 6 o'clock of a 6" bullseye, with the bullseye resting on top of your front sight, and hitting dead center, 2-3" above, your POA.
    Thanks for the correction, I meant zero not hold, I edited in the correction. I understand how the 3" high at 100 zero works(I think ) just am curious how it performs under 25yds.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcmo83 View Post
    Expanding on what Vlad said...

    You still won't be off more than the distance between the top of your front sight and the bore-axis with the irons zeroed that way. The closer you get to the target (from 25), it would be physically impossible for you to be "4-6"+" off, as you say, because there simply isn't enough elevation in the sights to make a difference. Check out the graphs in this thread to give you a better idea. You'll notice that none of the zeros, whether 25, 50 or 100 yards cause the round to ever go 'lower' than the distance between the front sight post and bore-axis before ~25 yards.

    Bottom line: Zeroing irons as FTS suggests won't make a difference for your CQB hold-offs.
    Not sure how I missed that thread. Thanks for the info, answers my question completely.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodgerk View Post
    crh - On a B8 target i will try to stay in the center of the target. Granted a six 'oclock hold is easier to consistently pull off but with the M4 the object is to put the round into the black at various ranges when not shooting a blacked out target.
    If you are going to zero with irons, you will get a much better group (zero) when holding at a definitive point on the target. On a B-8 target, you have 5.5" of black circle to aim at. If aiming for center, how do you know that you're aiming dead center? Or an inch high? Or an inch low? See what I mean?

    If you hold at the 6:00 edge of the target, now you have a much more definitive aiming point to work with in order to get your zero...whether you want your zero at POA or 2-3" above POA.

    Once you have the zero, and are shooting the target for competition, practice, ect. then, as with anything else, just remember your holds.

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    Ironman8 - you are of course exactly right and I do use a six 'oclock hold if I want to shoot for goups, eg., when building up loads. My point of reference for that answer is the objective of putting several rounds into a chest cavity sized group out to two hundrd yards. If I always held at six wouldn't that tend to put the group low at that distance from POA? Would you still advise holding a six picture and be comfortable that the group would be POA=POI to do the job in SD mode?

    Beyond 200 I hope to get my hands on my Model 70 308. Know exactly how that old friend groups out to 400.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironman8 View Post
    If you are going to zero with irons, you will get a much better group (zero) when holding at a definitive point on the target.
    That makes sense, and that's what I'm doing now, but once my range changes, what do I do? If I zero for a 6 o'clock hold at 100yds, hitting my groups in the bull, then move down to 50yds... do I still go for 6:00, then hold slightly high? 25yds, same thing?
    Last edited by crh; 06-21-12 at 15:14.

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