Backyard test of some 9mm 147gr JHPs

[vicious_cb]

Pics with averaged expanded diameters





Test gun was a S&W M&P9 FS with a 4.25" barrel. Test media was water jugs filled with wet newspaper with 4 layers of denim taped on the front of the first jug. All shots were taken from 10ft.

From right to left:

9mm 147gr Speer Gold Dot from an old test fired into plain water jugs. Penetrated 2 water jugs and bounced off the 3rd, found it on the ground a few feet away.

9mm 147gr Speer Gold Dot: Fully penetrated 2 jugs and stopped in the back of 3rd.

9mm 147gr Speer Gold Dot: Not shown. Fully penetrated 3 jugs, could not recover the bullet. Entry and exit of the 3rd jug looks it was traveling sideways when it entered the 3rd jug.

9mm 147gr Federal HST: Fully penetrated 2 jugs and stopped in the middle of the 3rd.

9mm 147gr Federal HST: Fully penetrated 2 jugs and stopped in the middle of the 3rd.

9mm 147gr Federal HST: Failed to expand. Penetrated 2 jugs and curved downward, found it at the bottom of the 3rd. I dont really know why it didn't expand.


Anyone have a clue to why one of the HSTs failed to expand? Im currently making the switch from Gold Dots to HSTs but the results of the test have me alittle worried.

[Discobobby]

I'm not Doc, but I'd only be worried if your family was attacked by rabid wet newspapers.

In all seriousness, your sample size was really small and your medium wasn't really ideal. There are countless calibrated gel shots of both Gold Dots and HSTs that prove them both to be dependable, consistent performers. You may have just gotten the equivalent of a flyer. Both rounds are on "The List" and both get great reviews from badguys who catch them. Worry instead about putting those bullets where they will do some good. Besides, it's only a pistol - if you get multiple solid hits good things will probably happen. I feel like it's mandatory to close a discussion like this with this quote from DocGKR:

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

[vicious_cb]

I'm not Doc, but I'd only be worried if your family was attacked by rabid wet newspapers.

In all seriousness, your sample size was really small and your medium wasn't really ideal. There are countless calibrated gel shots of both Gold Dots and HSTs that prove them both to be dependable, consistent performers. You may have just gotten the equivalent of a flyer. Both rounds are on "The List" and both get great reviews from badguys who catch them. Worry instead about putting those bullets where they will do some good. Besides, it's only a pistol - if you get multiple solid hits good things will probably happen. I feel like it's mandatory to close a discussion like this with this quote from DocGKR:

...

This thread is titled "Backyard Testing" for a reason. I can't shell out the cash for gel nor do I have the time to mold and chill and calibrate ballistics gel for a proper test. What I do have is a LIMITED number of empty water jugs, hence 3 test shots for each load, and some spare time. If you want to disparage my testing procedure send it to my PM box.

I know these loads are good performers since they are on Docs list. The purpose of this test was to make sure I didnt get a bad lot bullets which have been known to happen. I also know that JHPs dont always expand even under ideal conditions which is why Im asking for a reason. Were the cuts in jacket to shallow? Was it media? Was it some unexplainable random occurrence? Are HSTs inconsistent?

For example look at this thread where someone also shot some HSTs into water and some bullets failed to expand.



https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25746&page=4

The interesting thing occurred the following week when Wincheester came out. We kept the actual box of ammunition from ATK and reshot the 147 gr HST against the Winchester 147gr Ranger T loading. In one test we had two failures of the HST to expand. One round looked like the round pictured. I asked for the test to be reshot. The second time the round failed to expand at all. The thing looked like an unfired bullet.

[wrinkles]

You can also try this method. Scroll down towards the end of this page. Title will be:
Estimating Handgun Hollowpoint Bullet Penetration Using the MacPherson Water Test Method You can find the book on Amazon. I've been wanting to do this test just haven't been able to clone myself so I can have enought time.

http://firearmstactical.com/briefs5.htm

[vicious_cb]

You can also try this method. Scroll down towards the end of this page. Title will be:
Estimating Handgun Hollowpoint Bullet Penetration Using the MacPherson Water Test Method You can find the book on Amazon. I've been wanting to do this test just haven't been able to clone myself so I can have enought time.

http://firearmstactical.com/briefs5.htm

I dont really like using only water as a test media as it tends to over exaggerate the expanded diameter of the bullet.

[wrinkles]

I dont really like using only water as a test media as it tends to over exaggerate the expanded diameter of the bullet.

If you'll read the article it will give you some good info on this test. Duncan McPherson's book is top notch when it comes to terminal ballistics and bullet testing.

[tpd223]

I know of similar cases with the Ranger-T rounds due to the factory die that cuts the jacket being allowed to get dull.

I have often thought about what kind of QC testing I should have in house to make sure we didn't get ammo like that.

So far we haven't ever had a Gold Dot fail though.

[Beat Trash]

...

This thread is titled "Backyard Testing" for a reason. I can't shell out the cash for gel nor do I have the time to mold and chill and calibrate ballistics gel for a proper test. What I do have is a LIMITED number of empty water jugs, hence 3 test shots for each load, and some spare time. If you want to disparage my testing procedure send it to my PM box.

I know these loads are good performers since they are on Docs list. The purpose of this test was to make sure I didnt get a bad lot bullets which have been known to happen. I also know that JHPs dont always expand even under ideal conditions which is why Im asking for a reason. Were the cuts in jacket to shallow? Was it media? Was it some unexplainable random occurrence? Are HSTs inconsistent?

For example look at this thread where someone also shot some HSTs into water and some bullets failed to expand.



https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25746&page=4

Winchester does not use water when testing their ammunition.

The quote you mentioned described a ballistic workshop conducted at my agency by Winchester. The previous week, ATK came out and also conducted a ballistic workshop.

Bot companies utilize 10% ordnance gel that they calibrated in the presence of representatives of the host agency (I was the witness).

Dr. Gary Roberts will shoot multiple rounds for each test (I believe 10 shots, could be wrong about the number) and obtain an average. Both companies showed up on site with a limited number of pre-made gel blocks. Apparently gel blocks are expensive and a PIA to make and store correctly.

Did the 147 HST loading fail a portion of the test during the second workshop? Yes it did. Could it be explained? No it couldn't.

Would I use this one failure to prevent me from carrying the 147 gr HST in my personal guns? Hell no I wouldn't. Sometimes weird things happen that defy explanation by mere mortals and non-engineers. Just as sometimes weird things happen with bullets when you shoot people with them. That is why one trains for a followup shot(s).

The HST round performed well in the testing overall. It performed much better than our issued round at that time. The failure of the round in the one test was taken into consideration when the ultimate decision was made as to the new duty round. But I can tell you that it was not the deciding factor. Other things had to be taken into consideration, such as cost.

While I am not trying to dissuade the OP for his testing of ammunition in his backyard using the available media at hand, I would caution him to remember that wet newspaper is what it is.

[tpd223]

One real question I would have ref wet newspaper is "How wet?".

Variations in this would be a very big deal. Perhaps the tested bullet hit an air void in the media and opened up in the direction that the available resistance?

At any rate, I would hate to have the bullet on display flying through my chest, and it certainly would have been a more effective hit than a ball round.

[vicious_cb]

Winchester does not use water when testing their ammunition.

The quote you mentioned described a ballistic workshop conducted at my agency by Winchester. The previous week, ATK came out and also conducted a ballistic workshop.

Yes, the pics and your quote from that thread were 2 different and separate instances of HSTs not expanding I did not intend to make it seem that the pics from the water test were in some way linked to your Dept. ballistic workshop.

One real question I would have ref wet newspaper is "How wet?".

The jugs were filled with water then stuffed with newspaper packed down so it was really dense. The water level was up to the top of jug so there were no air spaces.