"Range Kata"

[Axcelea]

Let's get off the assumed definition of "Kata", as it means nothing to the intent of the thread unless you just want to talk about martial arts, which very well may be one of the most useless applications of the internet.
If "Kata" is the sticking point, just replace it with "choreography".

Same rules apply. Can do choreography for choreographic sake or you can use it to learn a particular move, technique, or form that is then applied to big picture fighting. Unless your doing something completely random such as reacting to an opponent, what your weapon spontaneously does, randomly set up course, etc then it will be choreographed which is either a good base to start learning things like weapon manipulations or the end result and stopping at choreography (chopping onions as another has said).

[Nippy]

In shooting I feel there are conscious actions and subconscious skills. There are drills that hone the subconscious skill sets and drills that work the conscious mind.

When the conscious actions are done without thought I would call that "choreography".

The choreographed things I see on the range are:

1) Scanning. This is something that has become an automated after action motor skill. People drop shots and are quick to get out of the fight.

2) Holstering: Another get out of the fight as soon as I possibly can so I look f'in cool thing.

3) Drawing/Reloading & Jumping off the X. The result of this being subconscious is jumping into the line of fire, YES it has happened and no one got hurt. I agree with the idea of screwing with the OODA loop but whenever I see this on the range done no matter whats going on I feel that person is very low on the situational awareness totem pole.

4) Changing vertical planes (prone -> kneel -> standing). Now here is a situation where you want to scan and no one does! Could be me but I am pretty paranoid about changing my position without knowing where all the muzzles are pointed.

5) Shooting, Yep.... No shoot target gets shot, people hose a target on the command of "butt tuck". Great examples of expensive live fire choreography.

6) Looking at your chamber. Another TMACS thing but if you feel your gun go empty you don't need to look at the chamber.

[Failure2Stop]

Same rules apply. Can do choreography for choreographic sake or you can use it to learn a particular move, technique, or form that is then applied to big picture fighting. Unless your doing something completely random such as reacting to an opponent, what your weapon spontaneously does, randomly set up course, etc then it will be choreographed which is either a good base to start learning things like weapon manipulations or the end result and stopping at choreography (chopping onions as another has said).

Dude, what are you talking about?
I think that you need to define the words you are using, as common terminology seems to be the other side of yours.

From Mirriam-Webster
Definition of CHOREOGRAPHY:
1: the art of symbolically representing dancing
2 a: the composition and arrangement of dances especially for ballet
b: a composition created by this art
3: something resembling choreography <a snail-paced choreography of delicate high diplomacy — Wolfgang Saxon>

[Axcelea]

Dude, what are you talking about?
I think that you need to define the words you are using, as common terminology seems to be the other side of yours.

From Mirriam-Webster
Definition of CHOREOGRAPHY:
1: the art of symbolically representing dancing
2 a: the composition and arrangement of dances especially for ballet
b: a composition created by this art
3: something resembling choreography <a snail-paced choreography of delicate high diplomacy — Wolfgang Saxon>

I am within that definition but just to double check that choreography is doing a sequence of pre planned moves?

"Can do choreography for choreographic sake or you can use it to learn a particular move, technique, or form that is then applied to big picture fighting."

Drawing, driving the gun forward, firing, S&A, and holstering is pretty much choreographed fighting (planned sequence) especially when everything is done to minutia of detail. Good to help learn all the basic principles involved but horrible to follow exactly in a fight especially since a lot of it your just going through the motions.

"Unless your doing something completely random such as reacting to an opponent, what your weapon spontaneously does, randomly set up course, etc then it will be choreographed which is either a good base to start learning things like weapon manipulations or the end result and stopping at choreography (chopping onions as another has said). "

Basically saying that unless your doing something like running through a shoot house where you don't have everything pre planned then your likely doing some sort of choreography.

Most basic drills are choreographed. Random target placement, random malfunctions, random orders, etc of course isn't.

[Failure2Stop]

You are talking about rehearsal, planning, and mental preparation, which are entirely different concepts from the whole purpose of the thread.

[Guns-up.50]

" what your weapon spontaneously does,

What exactly does your wpn spontaneously do?

[Axcelea]

You are talking about rehearsal, planning, and mental preparation, which are entirely different concepts from the whole purpose of the thread.

Which is choreography, planned and rehearsed sequences. The issue in terms of shooting is whether or not someone is doing all these planned and rehearsed moves for the sake of doing them or to actually learn them for a larger purpose which falls in line with the purpose of the thread (issues with doing something with no greater meaning then to do them (doing S&A but not noticing a thing)).

I know people probably hate thinking or accepting anything training related as being choreography or being like a Kata but it is. Only thing that matters is if you leave it at that or actually apply it.

What exactly does your wpn spontaneously do?

Anything not planned. Can be misfires, failure to feed, failure to extract, mag running out, etc. Perhaps the word unexpected is more fitting.

[Guns-up.50]

O.. gottcha

[Failure2Stop]

I know people probably hate thinking or accepting anything training related as being choreography or being like a Kata but it is.

If you don't understand the difference between training/rehearsal and the issue the thread is discussing, I don't know what to say to you. It appears that the concept is either completely eluding you or that you are intentionally being obtuse.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[az doug]

In this thread the OP asks about taking imaginary cover during a training course and then identifies it as potential "range kata". I like this term, even though I typically can't stand all this ninja/samurai crap we see in the shooting world.

Wikipedia defines kata as
Quote:
Kata (型 or 形 literally: "form") is a Japanese word describing detailed choreographed patterns of movements practised either solo or in pairs. The term form is used for the corresponding concept in non-Japanese martial arts in general.

So, in order to not hijack the other thread about a particular issue, I wanted to start a thread on the broader topic. This isn't about "training scars", and if you don't understand the difference please either don't post or ask for clarification. We're not talking about brass in a pocket or any of the "why I don't shoot competition" excuses, this is particularly about things done in a training environment, as directed by the instructors, that seem to be "form" (or, "kata") for form's sake.

Another example, IMO, might be the (sometimes elaborate) scan and assess that we see at classes....

F2S,

I am now asking for clarification as I agree with Axcelea, which means in your opinion I must be missing something. In the first post of this thread Rob provided a definition of Kata which defined it as "a Japanese word describing detailed choreographed patterns of movements." Rob gave an example of scan and assessing before holstering as something "done in a training environment, as directed by the instructors, that seem to be "form" (or, "kata") for form's sake.."

I agree with Rob that this is a choreographed move, but disagree that it is "form for form's sake." The student must envision the reason he/she is performing the task. If they don't and they just go through the motions then they will not get anything out of it. The student must understand the concept and apply it.

Anyway, F2S, if you can provide examples of what you believe we are discussing in this thread it would be greatly appreciated, because I am missing something as well.