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Thread: "Range Kata"

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedreaux View Post

    Don't teach against kata (or whatever you want to call it). Teach against apathy towards training.
    I'd rather teach people to be competent enough in their shooting that they can make the decision to look for bad guys where they might be rather than flopping their head around on the range thinking they're accomplishing anything.

  2. #72
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    That's what I'm saying. The apathetic guys are gonna head flop regardless of what skills you teach or how proficient they are.

    But who really cares about apathy anymore?
    HIPPIES SMELL

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedreaux View Post
    That's what I'm saying. The apathetic guys are gonna head flop regardless of what skills you teach or how proficient they are.
    I agree.

    I think that the value in this thread is illustrating the things that are easily done without thought, but that need to be done with thought. Lots of these points can drift into what we do, with the best of intentions, but not be understood by the person doing them, and in some cases by the person teaching those things.

    Someone that just wants to show up to the range to emulate their favorite youtube video can do whatever they please as long as they do it safely. My goal is that anyone that leaves a class is leaving with a higher level of technical ability, the ability to self-diagnose, and an understanding of the how and why of everything we did in class. Unfortunately, classes are often an overwhelming amount of information, and some information can be lost, or not fully seated. People tend to remember things they do better than things that they hear, and given that firearms training is a physical event, it's natural for people to focus on performance.
    Jack Leuba
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    Knight's Armament Company
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  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I'd rather teach people to be competent enough in their shooting that they can make the decision to look for bad guys where they might be rather than flopping their head around on the range thinking they're accomplishing anything.

    And that is called Bunkai.

    It's ironic that you are so dismissive of martial arts concepts and wish to divorce them from firearms training when you seem to understand many martial arts concepts without being aware of it. It is also ironic that you don't seem to accept there are certain constants in any form of combat even though you seem to already know it.

    Sadly I'd estimate that 50% of people in the martial arts are simply going through the motions with no real understanding, or worse an extremely misguided or impractical understanding of the meaning of those movements.

    The "application" of a given movement in "kata" is called "bunkai."

    And one could easily have two groups of 10 students doing the same drill / kata and group A would be shaking their head back and forth and doing nothing more productive than expelling sweat from their hair and group B while doing exactly the same drill / kata would then begin to actively search their environment for the next threat.

    One of the real problems with this is that at most ranges you must keep your firearm oriented in a safe direction so students do not do a 360 degree scan that you would do in the real world. This is obviously for safety concerns so students don't start turning all the way around with guns in their hands.

    But the difference between a person who simply turns their head back and forth without any real understanding of why and a person who now looks for the next possible threat, even when doing the exact same exercise, is of course the result of their instruction and the ability of the instructor to transmit information.

    As in the martial arts, there are plenty of people doing movements that are completely useless to them because they were never taught the true application (bunkai) and now these things have become a pointless cultural formality.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    And that is called Bunkai.

    It's ironic that you are so dismissive of martial arts concepts and wish to divorce them from firearms training when you seem to understand many martial arts concepts without being aware of it. It is also ironic that you don't seem to accept there are certain constants in any form of combat even though you seem to already know it.

    Sadly I'd estimate that 50% of people in the martial arts are simply going through the motions with no real understanding, or worse an extremely misguided or impractical understanding of the meaning of those movements.

    The "application" of a given movement in "kata" is called "bunkai."

    And one could easily have two groups of 10 students doing the same drill / kata and group A would be shaking their head back and forth and doing nothing more productive than expelling sweat from their hair and group B while doing exactly the same drill / kata would then begin to actively search their environment for the next threat.

    One of the real problems with this is that at most ranges you must keep your firearm oriented in a safe direction so students do not do a 360 degree scan that you would do in the real world. This is obviously for safety concerns so students don't start turning all the way around with guns in their hands.

    But the difference between a person who simply turns their head back and forth without any real understanding of why and a person who now looks for the next possible threat, even when doing the exact same exercise, is of course the result of their instruction and the ability of the instructor to transmit information.

    As in the martial arts, there are plenty of people doing movements that are completely useless to them because they were never taught the true application (bunkai) and now these things have become a pointless cultural formality.
    I think people need to realize that martial arts and firearms training is very similar if not damn near exactly the same thing (just with different weapons and necessary changes in strategy to address it).

    Probably will be fought about this and after centuries (a couple thousand years in some cases) various martial arts and philosophy has been watered down, is more exercise then anything, etc but you can even see that when it comes to firearms training and its the new kid on the block in terms of combat training. Firearms really also had a lot to do with martial arts taking the downward spiral, hand to hand wasn't so important anymore.
    Luck is awesome. The more proficient you are at what you do the luckier you seem to be.

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