Riding the Link; A training scar....

[C4IGrant]

Is there any merit to holding the trigger back when slow-firing for groups at 25+ yds?

I don't feel that I have the problem described above...I probably try to shoot TOO fast in most cases. But with slow fire, I hold the trigger back after the shot breaks to keep consistent, good follow-thru as I would with an AR shooting for groups.

Any thoughts?

I have done this as well. If you think about it, the alignment of the gun, follow through, etc has nothing to do with your finger resetting DURING recoil. It is also creating a bad habit that might just come back to get you at a later date.


C4

[Surf]

On a Glock I do not ride to reset, but I do not break finger contact either. Slow fire I definitely do a controlled and deliberate pull with a slight hold to the rear because it is my belief that more precision is gained with strict follow through which helps me to focus the other mechanics such as trigger pull, sight alignment, sight picture and my breathing and I have less influence on disrupting the weapon prior to the bullet leaving the barrel. Now up close and personal on a larger acceptable hit zone, it makes less of a difference.

As for trigger speed, I can definitely run bill drills with a 6 shot string in under 1 second consistent so my pull is pretty quick, however I can honestly say by looking at video slowed way down, that my finger is definitely NOT going forward either to, or beyond reset, faster than the slide is cycling. In other words there is no way that I can get my finger moving forward at the same time the slide is going forward. I am definitely not holding to the rear at .15 or .16 sec splits but in no way I am in line with my finger going forward with the slide.

I get myself into a trained rhythm or cadence from a distinct pull and hold to the rear. Speed is a result of correct and proper repetition. I believe that understanding what a good trigger pull is like with the least amount of disruption of the weapon comes from this type of learning of the trigger pull. Again speed develops with correct repetition. With a Glock or a hinged type of trigger with a heavier pull (5.5) than say a fine tuned 1911, I will see the opposite result for those who learn or try to do a flip with their finger going forward to early into the learning process. I see newer shooters more prone to snatching or upsetting the weapons alignment because they induce too much movement onto the pistol by attempting to do a flip and press type of pull. A flip and press type of finger manipulation is natural to us 1911 types but the straight draw trigger and generally lighter pull is more forgiving for this type of trigger finger manipulation than say on a Glock or a hinged trigger set up. Again I will mention that I will see more of a flip and press type of manipulation from 1911 guys, but generally they are more experienced when going to a Glock. Not as big of a fan of teaching a newer shooter to be so quick about sending the trigger finger forward. IMO it can easily deprive them of learning and getting a good firm working knowledge of the other basic fundamentals.

As always, my thoughts only reflect A way.

Edit to add - I do think that as a shooter gains experience that they can continue to do a sharp hold to the rear or indeed they will not pick up speed and can cause other issues mentioned in the OP. The distinction is the training progression and how to learn to pick up speed in a cadence or rhythm as skills progress. Starting this method too early IMO can cause some serious issues also.

[MAP]

Are there any drills, live or dry, that will help me learn to manipulate the trigger the way you describe? Is there a Glock trigger setup (springs, Connector etc) that lends itself to shootint the way you describe?

There are two drills (that I know of) that Vickers teaches to address this problem. So yes, there are drills to help with it.

C4

I previously struggled with this issue. What helped me the most was an Advantage Arms kit for my G17. I practiced single shots with trigger reset in recoil (what little there is). As I was able to reset in recoil, I increased my speed without degrading accuracy. It took a few thousand rounds to "learn" the correct reset. I then began the same process using 9mm. In the end, I increased my ability to shoot quickly and reset during recoil.

If I can do it anyone can. Good luck.

Mike

[C4IGrant]

On a Glock I do not ride to reset, but I do not break finger contact either. Slow fire I definitely do a controlled and deliberate pull with a slight hold to the rear because it is my belief that more precision is gained with strict follow through which helps me to focus the other mechanics such as trigger pull, sight alignment, sight picture and my breathing and I have less influence on disrupting the weapon prior to the bullet leaving the barrel. Now up close and personal on a larger acceptable hit zone, it makes less of a difference.

As for trigger speed, I can definitely run bill drills with a 6 shot string in under 1 second consistent so my pull is pretty quick, however I can honestly say by looking at video slowed way down, that my finger is definitely NOT going forward either to, or beyond reset, faster than the slide is cycling. In other words there is no way that I can get my finger moving forward at the same time the slide is going forward. I am definitely not holding to the rear at .15 or .16 sec splits but in no way I am in line with my finger going forward with the slide.

I get myself into a trained rhythm or cadence from a distinct pull and hold to the rear. Speed is a result of correct and proper repetition. I believe that understanding what a good trigger pull is like with the least amount of disruption of the weapon comes from this type of learning of the trigger pull. Again speed develops with correct repetition. With a Glock or a hinged type of trigger with a heavier pull (5.5) than say a fine tuned 1911, I will see the opposite result for those who learn or try to do a flip with their finger going forward to early into the learning process. I see newer shooters more prone to snatching or upsetting the weapons alignment because they induce too much movement onto the pistol by attempting to do a flip and press type of pull. A flip and press type of finger manipulation is natural to us 1911 types but the straight draw trigger and generally lighter pull is more forgiving for this type of trigger finger manipulation than say on a Glock or a hinged trigger set up. Again I will mention that I will see more of a flip and press type of manipulation from 1911 guys, but generally they are more experienced when going to a Glock. Not as big of a fan of teaching a newer shooter to be so quick about sending the trigger finger forward. IMO it can easily deprive them of learning and getting a good firm working knowledge of the other basic fundamentals.

As always, my thoughts only reflect A way.

Edit to add - I do think that as a shooter gains experience that they can continue to do a sharp hold to the rear or indeed they will not pick up speed and can cause other issues mentioned in the OP. The distinction is the training progression and how to learn to pick up speed in a cadence or rhythm as skills progress. Starting this method too early IMO can cause some serious issues also.

I don't disagree with most of your points and am a fan of teaching students slow fire/accuracy (where their finger has not necessarily returned to the reset point by the time the sights are back on the target).

We have to teach things in blocks or stages so as not to overwhelm the new shooter with too many problems/ideas.

The example I used in my first post was of student(s) that have received multiple training classes and either their instructor never progressed them as a shooter (to stop riding the link) or they never realized they were doing it and fixed it themselves. Don't really know, but either way the result was not ideal.

As you mentioned, you shoot fast and accurately because you are in rhythm. If your finger isn't going forward as the slide is going forward, that isn't a big deal. The fact that you are in "a" rhythm and are manipulating the trigger straight to the rear is what matters IMHO.




C4

[C4IGrant]

I previously struggled with this issue. What helped me the most was an Advantage Arms kit for my G17. I practiced single shots with trigger reset in recoil (what little there is). As I was able to reset in recoil, I increased my speed without degrading accuracy. It took a few thousand rounds to "learn" the correct reset. I then began the same process using 9mm. In the end, I increased my ability to shoot quickly and reset during recoil.

If I can do it anyone can. Good luck.

Mike

Cool man and a good use of a .22 conversion kit.

Have you ever done the trigger reset drill in the Vickers classes you attended? This is the only way I know of to get people to "feel" and or practice (without firing the gun) the act of resetting the trigger during recoil.


C4

[Ironman8]

I have done this as well. If you think about it, the alignment of the gun, follow through, etc has nothing to do with your finger resetting DURING recoil. It is also creating a bad habit that might just come back to get you at a later date.


C4

Yeah, thanks Grant. I'm not sure if the fairly small percentage of slow fire shooting that I do will be able to overcome all the muscle memory developed for all the "defensive" type shooting that I typically do...but its always good to be aware of it and watch out for it...

[C4IGrant]

Yeah, thanks Grant. I'm not sure if the fairly small percentage of slow fire shooting that I do will be able to overcome all the muscle memory developed for all the "defensive" type shooting that I typically do...but its always good to be aware of it and watch out for it...

If I remember correctly, you are a good shooter. Good shooters (meaning fundamentally sound) can get away with more things than a shooter that is just trying to figure out how to align the sights.

As you said though, it is important to not allow bad habits creep into your "good habits."



C4

[MAP]

Cool man and a good use of a .22 conversion kit.

Have you ever done the trigger reset drill in the Vickers classes you attended? This is the only way I know of to get people to "feel" and or practice (without firing the gun) the act of resetting the trigger during recoil.


C4

I've done the drill in Larry's classes. Unfortunately I'm a slow learner. The trigger reset in recoil was the most difficult skill for me to learn in pistol shooting.

Mike

[Magsz]

In a nutshell.

Shooting to reset generally results in the shooter "pushing" the trigger instead of prepping through the slack and pressing through the break point.

Reset under recoil.

Alot easier to say than to do.

[C4IGrant]

I've done the drill in Larry's classes. Unfortunately I'm a slow learner. The trigger reset in recoil was the most difficult skill for me to learn in pistol shooting.

Mike

Well, I don't know about you being a slow learner, but it is hard to do for sure.


C4