been shooting low and left for years now......

[kenndapp]

i give my grip some extra love right before my shot breaks. my trigger finger moves......the rest of my finger simultaneously tighten up, giving a shifting and inconsistent grip as the shot breaks. combine that with the physiological induced flinch of "oh my god, its about to break the shot and recoil!" and i am left with a crappy low and left pattern on my target.this seems to happen with any pistol i try... although i have been using glocks pretty much exclusively for the past year.


let me kick this off with a disclaimer:

-i know why i shoot low and left
-i know how not to shoot low and left
-i only shoot low and left at what i call "realistic speed" or "time is life" speed.
- i can print very nice groups at 10, 25, even out to 50 yards sometimes. but, they come very slow and require enough mental struggle to stay focused on the fundamentals to give me a head ache and blurred vision. accuracy with a pistol is a very difficult and painstaking mental battle for me.

things i have tried:

-finger position on the trigger...... tip, middle of pad, just left of crease, and even right on the crease.
-trigger pull fundamentals.... slow straight press to the rear, shoot from the reset, follow though.
-snap caps in the mag to reveal the problem.
-slightly modified grip technique.
-slow, slow, constant focus on the fundamentals...... improvements shown but do not last.
-research and videos
- local classes
-one on one training with more advanced shooters.
-begging for advice.
-dry fire, dry fire, dry fire.......more dry fire.

i have tried every thing from random snap caps in the mag to thousands upon thousands of successful slow trigger press rounds downrange....with good results i might add. when i slow down and focus on the fundamentals the low and left problems disappear...obviously. but when i speed up to an acceptable level of speed i fall right back in to the same bad trigger jerking habit. i just cant seem to shake it. i want to train a realistic speed but i seem constitutionally incapable of applying any sort of handgun marksmanship fundamentals when shooting at a"realistic" or "time is life" speed. it all just goes out the window. again this has been going on for years now. every time i seem to "shake" or "brake" the bad habit with slow consistent training....it comes right back when things speed up a bit. what the hell is wrong with me the reason i cant learn to isolate my trigger finger from the rest of my hand except when at crawling turtle speed? why cant i learn not to give my grip that extra love right before my shot breaks? obviously thees problems don't surface with a long gun but i cant very well walk around with an ar15 strapped to my back all the time, now can i?
is there anyone who has had this problem that was able to brake it for good? i fully understand "speed if fine but, accuracy is final" and "you cannot miss fast enough to catch up" but there is a such thing as an unrealistic or ineffective speed. especially when speaking in terms of defensive shooting to save a life of myself or a loved one. i am at a loss here guys. any one struggled with this as much as i have? please advise. thank you.

[jumpthestack]

If you only have the problem when shooting fast, try shooting in increasingly fast cadence.

e.g.
Count out loud:
one one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand, four one thousand, five one thousand, six one thousand. When you say the count is when the gun should go off. That's about one round per second. Practice until you can get a sufficiently tight/centered group at whatever distance you deem appropriate.

Then do the cadence of
one and two and three and four and five and six
which is about one round every half second. When you can do that, do

one two three four five six
as fast as you can say it. That will be about one round every 1/4 second. For each of these, you should physically say the words out loud with your mouth to get the right timing. Believe it or not, if you just think the count in your brain, it will not be as consistent in timing as saying it out loud.

The point is to slowly increase your speed in a measurable way, rather than just "slow" and "fast".

[Socom Elite]

The op is almost my exact same story too. I have been practicing to keep them centered with small improvements, but not what I'd like.

[MFP]

I learned a new trigger “press” that is more of a “flick.” It is essential working the trigger reset while the weapon is cycling opposed to waiting for the reset “click.” This trigger “flick” was counter intuitive to me but afterwards I was taken aback by how tight my groups were especially with follow-up shots and rapid firing. This method seemed to cure my “Glocking the trigger.” That and adding more finger.

This "flick" may work for you. Give it a try.

[kenndapp]

I learned a new trigger “press” that is more of a “flick.” It is essential working the trigger reset while the weapon is cycling opposed to waiting for the reset “click.” This trigger “flick” was counter intuitive to me but afterwards I was taken aback by how tight my groups were especially with follow-up shots and rapid firing. This method seemed to cure my “Glocking the trigger.” That and adding more finger.

This "flick" may work for you. Give it a try.

so add more finger (closer to crease of joint) and don't wait for the reset? as in reset during cycling? what about follow through? i was told that was an important element, no? if i am letting out as soon as the shot breaks i am not following through, correct? just trying to understand exactly what you mean. i am fascinated right now as i thought i have tried every thing yet this sounds new to me. this may warrant another trip to the range tomorrow.

[C4IGrant]

Have you done the ball and dummy drills?

You most likely need to work with an experienced trainer that knows how to ID a flinch, replace the flinch with a good trigger pull and then run you through drills that will force you to address it.

C4

[Hmac]

Louis Awerbuck, at his pistol courses, always starts the first day by asking for an honest show of hands as to who is having POA/POI disparities. Always, a few reluctant hands start to go up. He starts the range work by taking those honest enough to admit their issue and watch them shoot individually. In an almost Yoda-like manner, he diagnoses and treats the issue. It's uncanny to watch.

He always hands out this chart at every course.

[MFP]

so add more finger (closer to crease of joint) and don't wait for the reset? as in reset during cycling? what about follow through? i was told that was an important element, no? if i am letting out as soon as the shot breaks i am not following through, correct? just trying to understand exactly what you mean. i am fascinated right now as i thought i have tried every thing yet this sounds new to me. this may warrant another trip to the range tomorrow.

Grant raises a good point - ball and dummy drill with an experienced trainer will help you identify your flinch. I ran this drill attending a VSM class and others with reputable trainers.

Search this forum and you will see those that are experts in their field describe, via youtube, the idea of using more "finger" on the trigger. Adding more finger is closer to the first crease in your finger. The flick, I believe, was developed by Sig Sauer and the Sig Sauer Academy. This method, to my understanding, is taught by a school down south to new military recruits. You maintain follow-through after the flick and always check your points. Worked very well with rapid fire as you are firing in cadence with your weapon recoil.

I would start with more finger for the trigger "press" and proceed from there. The SME that explains this on this forum, with youtube explaination, also gives a good example of what to expect when dry firing with more finger versus less trigger. You can actually see your gun "pull" low left.

Others in this forum, especially Grant and company, will have good tools as well to help you overcome this issue.

MFP

[Heavy Metal]

Have you done the ball and dummy drills?

You most likely need to work with an experienced trainer that knows how to ID a flinch, replace the flinch with a good trigger pull and then run you through drills that will force you to address it.

C4

I bet he is dropping his wrist, I.E. got a wrist snatch. Wehn I go 'over the edge' pushing my speed, this is what I do. Thankfully, it is getting so I can go a good bit faster and not do it.

Lots of practice, about 5 thousand rounds a year and dryfire to isolate the trigger finger muscle. Learing to not overly obsess over the sight picture and to try and press cleanly straight thru the break point on the trigger helped me.

[Kokopelli]

I bought a Kimber that shot low and left several years ago. Turns out it had a virus.. I foolishly put it in the safe and now every pistol I buy and put in that safe shoots low and left.. Ron