"Good Shoot?"

[az doug]

Last night I literally answered the question as I understood it: “What role will alcohol play in an otherwise justifiable use of deadly physical force” and the answer is that it won't.

The reality is alcohol impairs our decision making process/judgment and therefore our ability to evaluate the situation and make the proper decision. Studies have shown that a person with a .03% BAC W/V is impaired to the slightest degree. Some counties use .03% BAC W/V as their legal statutory limit. To put this in perspective, if a 160 lb male quickly consumes a 12 oz beer with a 5.0 % ABV their blood alcohol content will reach a peak of .025% BAC W/V. Four of those beers within and hour and that same 160 lb male’s BAC will reach .10% BAC W/V.

The bottom line is alcohol impairs our ability to judge any given situation and should not be used in conjunction with firearms. However, as myself, Grant, and others have pointed out, if you find yourself in the unfortunate situation where you have consumed alcohol and are faced with a deadly force situation what is your alternative, be a victim??? In that case I will deal with the legal system later.

By the way, BAC W/V means blood alcohol content weight by volume. The weight is grams of alcohol and the volume is 100 cc's or one milliliter of blood. A .10% BAC W/V means you have 1/10th of a gram of alcohol in every 100 cc's/Milliliter of your blood. ABV means alcohol by volume.

[az doug]

I am going to link to this thread as it directly addresses some CCW's thoughts on acting as the "Good Samaritan" where they rush in and save the day!

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...=1#post1349941




C4

When I read that thread a simple quote comes to mind: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

[Guns-up.50]

3. Did you clearly see a weapon? Or did you think you saw it? Was there an actual threat or did you take their word for the fact that they had a weapon?



Questions, comments, ideas??


C4

I skimmed and didn't see anyone address this? The perceived weapon is enough to turn the crime into armed crime(even if they are UN-armed). This is not the time to be calling someones bluff.
So if someone is assaulting me or mine and they say they have a weapon then yes I will take their word for it..

[C4IGrant]

I skimmed and didn't see anyone address this? The perceived weapon is enough to turn the crime into armed crime(even if they are UN-armed). This is not the time to be calling someones bluff.
So if someone is assaulting me or mine and they say they have a weapon then yes I will take their word for it..

Assaulting you and telling you that he has a weapon? Ya, I would call his bluff.

Not assaulting me and pretending to have a weapon (that I am not seeing), I won't be shooting him.

YMMV.


C4

[Warp]

The answer two your question was simple (too simple) so I expanded on it for a discussion that people would benefit from.

As many police officers have pointed out in this thread, if you are in the right on the shooting, having alcohol in your system isn't going to change their opinion on the fact that you were in the right.

I know that you like to think that eveyone that goes into a bar or restaurant and drinks until drunk, but that just isn't the case. If you do think this, then YOU ARE THE FOOL!

Fact is, most of us have ONE drink with dinner and I haven't gone to a bar with the purpose of getting drunk since I was in the USN and 20yrs old.



C4

No, Grant, that isn't even remotely close to what I think. In the future I would appreciate if you could avoid telling me what I think.

[mkmckinley]

Where does nonlethal fall into this from a legal standpoint? What if I'm carrying pepper spray or a taser but elect to use my CCW in a justifiable homicide. Assuming it's a good shoot will the fact that I had a nonlethal option but chose not to use it end up biting me in the ass?

There are plenty of potential situations where one could have to defend himself but wouldn't be justified in drawing or using a firearm. I'm reasonably capable of defending myself unarmed but the last thing I want to do is wrestle around with someone while I have a gun in my waistband. I like the idea of having some pepper spray that can be used effectively for self defense at standoff distance while also falling at the bottom of he UOF heirarchy.

[C4IGrant]

No, Grant, that isn't even remotely close to what I think. In the future I would appreciate if you could avoid telling me what I think.

Right. When you call someone else a fool, you should be prepared to get it right back.


You were already warned by the mod to stop "baiting" members (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...=109035&page=5) so that should be your clue to back away.


C4

[gunrunner505]

Not to beat a dead horse but here is the post I was working on. This seems as good a place as any to put it. While this incident was not a shooting, it was a case of coming to the aid of another and how it turned out to be a bad idea.

An Argument for not getting involved.

A guy I currently work with is retired Navy. He says there are 2 kinds of stories, Fairy Tales and Sea Stories. Fairy Tales start out Once Upon a Time, Sea Stories start out This Is A No Shitter, This Is A No Shitter.

This is what happened to 3 off duty cops when they got involved in an off duty incident. Now, this accounting is as accurate as I can make it based on my memory and what I can find.

Act 1: The Incident
The main players are as follows:
LEO 1: My friends brother
LEO 2: Second guy in the group
LEO 3: Third guy in the group
Drunk Guy: The assgasket of this affair
Hostage: A random female in the wrong place at the wrong time.

How the 3 LEOs know each other I do not recall so I will not speculate. None were armed.

The 3 cops are at a bar having a beer and shooting the breeze. One thing leads to another and they end up in a thing with the Drunk Guy. The altercation calms down and everyone goes back to business. After some time the altercation reignites in the parking lot. Drunk Guy in belligerent and mouthy and all those kinds of things. After a period of time he pulls a knife, grabs a female, holds the knife to her throat and announces in loud drunk guy voice he’s going to slit her throat. 911 is called. The 3 cops are able to get the drunk guy unarmed and suppressed and the hostage out of harms way. Somebody had hand cuffs so the cuff him. LEO 1 disengages and calls 911. He identifies himself and law enforcement and tells the operator where they are and what they need. LEO 2 disengages as well. LEO 3 evidently can’t drop the subject and puts the boot to drunk guy while he’s on the ground in cuffs, breaking some facial bones. LEOs 1 and 2 are nowhere near this. Uniformed cops show up and take over.

Act 2: The Arrest and Trial

LEOs 1, 2 and 3 are all arrested and charged with multiple felonies. They are tried, convicted of felony mob action, felony assault and a few other things and packed off to jail. Now, LEO 3 who kicked the guy should face some kind of action and he was convicted of multiple crimes, LEOs 1 and 2 were nowhere near this kicking incident and did not participate.

Act 3: Appeal

After spending more than 50 days in jail LEOs 1 and 2 are released by the court after some, let’s say “irregularities” are discovered. As it turns out, the DAs office manufactured evidence, suppressed other evidence, altered the 911 tape, the version played in court and provided to the defense was proven to have been tampered with so it was not original. They manipulated and threatened witnesses and coerced testimony.

Act 4: The fall out.

2 cops get bent over a trash can so the DA can look cool

LEO 1 had his conviction over turned on appeal and is working on having his record expunged but due to circumstances I just don’t recall, he will never be a cop again. As he’s an older guy, late 40s, his career is effectively over.

LEO 2 plead to a lesser misdemeanor and while he was fired by his department while in jail he was hired on by another town after his conviction was overturned and is out there on the streets doing good.

LEO 3 spent 2 years in jail, is a convicted felon and will never be a cop again.

Drunk Guy sued the town and department LEO 3 worked for and was awarded a $450,000 settlement. Now, mind you, this guy pulled a knife on 3 cops, took a woman hostage, put that knife to her throat, threatened to kill her and perjured himself in court. He has never been arrested or charged with any crime. I'm not a cop, lawyer or legal expert but I'm pretty sure there's a crime in there somewhere.

The DA is still the DA, going along like nothing ever happened. However his office is under investigation.

The ADA who tried the case resigned on good terms but is getting as far from this as possible.

The judge presiding over the case “retired” to protect himself from any fallout. Evidently there’s some law protecting retired judges from backlash. And he’s under suspicion for other things.

Now, if you research this in the media you will only find articles relating to the conviction of these 3 guys. There is nothing about LEOs 1 and 2's acquittal, the evidence tampering, nothing. And I’ve looked.

What a great state. Just today another associate of our currently imprisoned former governor was sentenced for his role in political corruption and another 7, yes 7, political figures in this state had federal indictments against them unsealed for bribery. Does it get more crooked than Illinois?

Again, this is accurate to the best of my knowledge.

Before you go riding into a situation like the Lone Ranger, think about what happened to 2 good cops.

Ok, off my soapbox.

[Warp]

I think this would be an example of things such as:

Unfortunate things have been known to happen at bars and other locations where alcohol is consumed.

The prosecutors office might not play fair.

Question: Had the LEO who seriously assaulted/battered the man who was in custody consumed alcohol that night?

[gunrunner505]

Unfortunate things do happen at bars, yes.

For the DA to break the law is beyond not playing fair, it's illegal.

Yes, all 3 had consumed alcohol but to what degree I do not know. I do not belive any would have failed a sobriety test.