Deadmeat2's findings and suggestions

[TXinfidel]

I ran a quick search and found very little if any response on his findings. Normally I push none scientific testing/ thought aside, but he seems to speak with a bit of knowledge about the human body and the tendencies of projectiles passing through them. Is there something I am missing or does his advice deserve some consideration?

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20B...a%20morgue.htm

Also DRGKR, is there any data available to suggest that heavier .45 auto may show increased performance against bone in the human body over lighter projectiles? Or will good bullet design in any popular service caliber perform adequate against it?

Or if this guy is full of it please let me know.

[BufordTJustice]

I ran a quick search and found very little if any response on his findings. Normally I push none scientific testing/ thought aside, but he seems to speak with a bit of knowledge about the human body and the tendencies of projectiles passing through them. Is there something I am missing or does his advice deserve some consideration?

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20B...a%20morgue.htm

Also DRGKR, is there any data available to suggest that heavier .45 auto may show increased performance against bone in the human body over lighter projectiles? Or will good bullet design in any popular service caliber perform adequate against it?

Or if this guy is full of it please let me know.

I'm a cop in Orlando. I can tell you from what this guy wrote that he did not see any quality modern 9mm HP's in action.

I think this guy is full of it.

[Eliakim]

I remember this guy created an uproar on several gun forums a few years ago. I suspect his findings are dubious at best

[DocGKR]

Much of what he said is accurate, a lot is not. As the author clearly stated, he is primarily seeing BG vs. BG interactions. Last I checked, felon's generally are not using modern robust expanding JHP's; usually cheap FMJ's or occasionally older generation JHP's. Keep in mind that older design JHP's tended to plug--the higher velocity of .357 Mag helped these loads deform better than 9 mm of that era. In addition, many older JHP's were too fragile and fragmented. As a result, I suspect the author's viewpoints are a bit skewed by the limited sample size of quality modern defensive loads.

[200RNL]

Is there something I am missing or does his advice deserve some consideration?

That was painful. I could only get through a fraction of it before I gave up. A little too much hyperbole for me.

Or if this guy is full of it please let me know.

Seems that way.

[Fail-Safe]

I read somewhere, maybe here, that members of his own department outed him as a fraud. He greatly exagerated his own credentials, and his findings.

[TXinfidel]

Much of what he said is accurate, a lot is not. As the author clearly stated, he is primarily seeing BG vs. BG interactions. Last I checked, felon's generally are not using modern robust expanding JHP's; usually cheap FMJ's or occasionally older generation JHP's. Keep in mind that older design JHP's tended to plug--the higher velocity of .357 Mag helped these loads deform better than 9 mm of that era. In addition, many older JHP's were too fragile and fragmented. As a result, I suspect the author's viewpoints are a bit skewed by the limited sample size of quality modern defensive loads.

Specifically regarding the issue of bone penetration do you think that there is any quality data to support this? Or will this again refer us back to a quality HP in any caliber being sufficient and all relatively performing the same?

[Microalign]

Specifically regarding the issue of bone penetration do you think that there is any quality data to support this? Or will this again refer us back to a quality HP in any caliber being sufficient and all relatively performing the same?

There is research to support that larger, heavier calibers doing better against internal bone structure. The 1994 Canadian study incorporated swine ribs in ballistic gel. Then in the early 1990s, Dr. Lane inserted femurs into ballistic gel. The 9mm 115gr and 147gr loads were able to crack the femur, while the .45acp loads punched right through it. If we take those works as credible, then the bigger, heavier caliber not only makes a larger hole, but it has more reliable penetration characteristics as it travels through the body. Wound ballistic science has always favored larger calibers as being more effective, it is the software aspect of the equation that favors smaller caliber use. Anyone can go to the gun range and compare hardware to see which one they shoot better. When it comes to terminal effects you have to read what others have done and trust in the research. Some shooters are overly trusting and will accept any pseudoscience that comes along. Some shooters will be overly skeptical of research, and accept only what they have experienced first hand(usually very limited experience). Most shooters get into a comfort zone of confidence in their equipment, whether it is a good selection or not, and will block out anything that brings doubt into their judgement.

[DocGKR]

Heavier projectiles tend to defeat intermediate barriers like automobile windshields and punch through long bones better than lighter ones as Dr. Lane's study illustrated. The latest generation 9 mm's are also quite good. Personally, I am now carrying a 9 mm using quality JHP's.