Where did you hear this? What is the return rate?Originally Posted by 10-76
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Where did you hear this? What is the return rate?
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At work, in the forums recently, etc..
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Regarding the reality of S&W's policy on the support of LE 1911's from Hilton Yam:
"For clarification re: the original post, S&W is not pushing the E Series 1911s for LE due to their current warranty policy. Their usual warranty support for agencies with S&W pistols is quite comprehensive, and it is their concern that agencies ending up with the very maintenance intensive 1911 will be killing them with things like replacement springs every few thousand rounds, replacement mags, new bushings, etc etc etc. Until they can hammer out a revised 1911 specific policy for agencies, they are just not pushing the issue. Further, production of the E Series is so behind, they wouldn't be able to support an agency order of any substantial size. "
2nd I would be shy of quoting on anecdotal evidence of high return rates without first hand knowledge of actual rates and Internet boards don't count.
If you like your sig great, but from the price you quoted I would disagree that they are undervalued. But that is just my experience with them.
“Like a sword, a word can wound or kill, but as long as one does not touch the blade, the sword is no more than a smooth piece of steel. Someone who knows the qualities of a sword does not play with it, and someone who knows the nature of words does not play with them.”-- Miyamoto Misashi
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Yes, the "reality" is as I stated: S&W is not supporting LE sales as they have in the past, whether it be agency or individual officer. Please explain how Hilton's copy/pasted statement contradicts mine.
Correct, per anecdotal evidence on the interwebs. I did not quote anybody from therein, but reported my research basics of the last 8 months, and I continue to read about it online and hear about it at work, and on the range. Did you want a download of digi-cordings from the locker room?
Your last comment of dissection has double-negatives in it-what did you mean? SIG is $200-300 less, with better LE support at the moment, comes with better features, and I could actually purchase one when I was ready to purchase one. More gun, better support, lifetime warranty, availability, and almost $300 less. Hmmm, yeah.....you're correct.
If you want to continue cross-talking my opinion about a pistol and infer an ignorance on my part, shoot me a P.M.. Otherwise, enough of your child games and thread-jack crap.
Last edited by 10-76; 07-26-12 at 15:04.
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I would suspect, the SW1911 was never targeted at the LE community whereas the M&P line is...correct?
Regarding internet banter about faulty SW1911's, I have read some of the same stuff...but most seem to be regarding a scratch or blemish on the finish. Without knowing what SW knows, I don't know if there is any way to get a good idea on QC or not.
Last edited by Redhat; 07-26-12 at 16:39.
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Correct, but with caveats; the M&P line fits (3) items mentioned by Hilton-budget, maintenance time, and agency Armorers. The light rail makes the E-Series attractive to LE needs for us midnight shifters who are allowed to carry what is approved.
All pistols have an issue or another, and I do not say that to muddy the waters, or it could be that S&W has sold more E-Series Tac. pistols than SIG's line. Therefore, a larger number in the field will have a larger proportion of reportings.
Personally, I'm more a fan of S&W's pistols and have had great experience with their revolvers, M&P line, and their 3rd gen. 10xx series. That being said, I'm leaning towards checking out a TRP after I figure out what my duty/3-gun AR will be. Cheers.
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It's also possible that buyers of the E-series have a different set of performance standards on average than buyer of the Sig 1911.
Note that I am not saying this IS the case, but simply that it would be another way to explain greater rates of S&W 1911s getting returned, even if their average performance was better.
If the average SW buyer puts substantially more rounds through their pistol, they will disover issues much more quickly.
Just another thought on interpreting the data.
Full disclosure: I'm the editor of Calibre Magazine, which is Canada's gun magazine. In the past I've done consulting work for different manufacturers and OEM suppliers, but not currently. M4C's disclosure policy doesn't seem to cover me but we do have advertisers, although I don't handle that side of things and in general I do not know who is paying us at any given time.
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Dude don't start talking smack.
Hilton's comments highlight the whole story, they point out the "stepping away" from LE means they have a hold until on E series LE channel purchases until they revise the policy for 1911's & get caught up on the orders. Sucks yes, but an individual officer can buy them commercially and get the same Lifetime warranty you got from your SIG on GB. They will still warranty the weapon, they just won't give the comprehensive service typical in the agency contracts.
They are hard to get and there is a lot of demand for them, Wilson is almost 1.5 years, Springfield custom is what a year out also. Good 1911 platforms are very much in demand.
digi-cordings..funny. When I hear a statement of fact like "There is a reported high rate of returns for CS with the S&W. " I like to know the source to see if it can be vetted. I do know enough professionals (civ & LE) running the E series in decent numbers, to included the MSP STOP unit, that I am pretty comfortable with them, as comfortable as with any production 1911 in LE.
I really question the value of the SIG 1911. Given what I have seen of SIG with the agencies around here and knowledge of their management, I flat out don't trust them to build such as labor intensive platform correctly, that is going to stand up to hard use. I don't know a single SME (LAV, Hilton, Morrison, etc) in 1911's that is going to back the SIG both vs the E series or in general. LAV told me what his evaluation of them was personally at the 1911 training class & it was not a polite response.
The extra cost of having the corrections done by a knowledge smith throws the value prop way off & I found SIG service to be nearly maddening in their lack of understanding of the 1911. Given Mr. Heinie's experience in this thread and the corrections he had to do to 100% of the pistols he ordered from GB I just don't see a reason to think that has changed.
Your tac-ops works well, I think that is great. We are just going to disagree on this topic.
Last edited by Sigmax; 07-27-12 at 02:03.
“Like a sword, a word can wound or kill, but as long as one does not touch the blade, the sword is no more than a smooth piece of steel. Someone who knows the qualities of a sword does not play with it, and someone who knows the nature of words does not play with them.”-- Miyamoto Misashi
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OP requested input from owners on 2 pistols: I just stopped shopping and researching one, before I researched and bought the other pistol the OP is asking about.
There is no "smack " to that: cost, availability, features, QC, and again availability. Nothing to disagree about. Moving on...
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OP, here is some great advice: http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/...ughts.html?m=1
Good luck. Personally I would not buy either a Sig or S&W 1911. For "entry level" I'd either look hard at the Springfield or the Colt rail gun.
Before you suggest that licensing, background checks, or other restrictions for the 2nd Amendment are reasonable... Apply those same ideas to the 1st and 4th Amendments. Then tell me how reasonable they are.
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