CC...a critical review and discussion

[ColtJ]

I would argue that the shooter DID THINK everyone was armed (as he knows CCW is common in his State). This is why he had body armor on and a helmet (as he has expecting a gun fight).

So if everyone was OPEN carrying, would have not done what he did? No, I don't think so.

C4

In this particular case it seems this guy was prepared to go through with this no matter what; sadly, these occurrences will happen time to time.

I think training could have changed the situation a bit and this is where society tends to fail, many will buy a sidearm but will not train or shoot it enough to be able to effectively defend themselves or their loved ones.

However, I do think there are many bad guys (semi sane ones) that would think twice if there is a high percentage that granny is packing a .45 in her purse and she knows how to use it. The pay off just wouldn't be worth it.

Open carry is a different discussion all together i think.

[CarbonCycles]

Gents,

Thank you for all the different POVs. C4, I think you've kind of gotten the old hamsters spinning in a higher gear now. I agree with you that sh*t happens and deal with it, but now framing that in the context you've described, I find myself somewhat perplexed. I guess fatherhood changes one's view because at one time I wouldn't have given this a second thought.

As for who gets shot first...err I mean open carry, yes, that is definitely another topic to itself.

[C4IGrant]

In this particular case it seems this guy was prepared to go through with this no matter what; sadly, these occurrences will happen time to time.

I think training could have changed the situation a bit and this is where society tends to fail, many will buy a sidearm but will not train or shoot it enough to be able to effectively defend themselves or their loved ones.

However, I do think there are many bad guys (semi sane ones) that would think twice if there is a high percentage that granny is packing a .45 in her purse and she knows how to use it. The pay off just wouldn't be worth it.

Open carry is a different discussion all together i think.

I would have liked to have someone in the room like Ironman8 (that has accuracy and room clearing training) put a few rounds on the shooter to see if he changed his mind about what he was doing (or not). We will never know for sure, but I do think that a show of force is always a good thing and bad guys tend to be cowards and not looking for a fair fight (so they will always select places where there are the most sheep).


C4

[C4IGrant]

Gents,

Thank you for all the different POVs. C4, I think you've kind of gotten the old hamsters spinning in a higher gear now. I agree with you that sh*t happens and deal with it, but now framing that in the context you've described, I find myself somewhat perplexed. I guess fatherhood changes one's view because at one time I wouldn't have given this a second thought.

As for who gets shot first...err I mean open carry, yes, that is definitely another topic to itself.

As a Father of two young boys, I understand your fears. Their safety and my safety (as they need me) becomes priority one. So if I have an escape route that I can push them through (VS fighting), that is what is going to happen. Sorry, but the publics safety isn't my job as a CCW holder (your on your own).

If I cannot escape, I will stand and fight for THEM.



C4

[Ironman8]

I would have liked to have someone in the room like Ironman8 (that has accuracy and room clearing training) put a few rounds on the shooter to see if he changed his mind about what he was doing (or not). We will never know for sure, but I do think that a show of force is always a good thing and bad guys tend to be cowards and not looking for a fair fight (so they will always select places where there are the most sheep).


C4

Thanks Grant, I can only wish/hope that yourself and the guys I have trained with who are on top of things would be somewhere around if/when the poop starts to fly. Unfortunately, guys like yourself are too far and few between...

As a Father of two young boys, I understand your fears. Their safety and my safety (as they need me) becomes priority one. So if I have an escape route that I can push them through (VS fighting), that is what is going to happen. Sorry, but the publics safety isn't my job as a CCW holder (your on your own).

If I cannot escape, I will stand and fight for THEM.


C4

This brings up a good topic, that I hope can stay within the confines of the OP...

I have thought about this CO shooting and what I could have possibly done if I were there (and please don't take this as MMQB'ing). First, I would have been there most likely with just my wife, or possibly a couple of other friends or family members...no kids for me yet.

Putting myself (hypothetically) in this situation, I would be torn between ending the threat as quickly as possible OR getting the fam to safety and then (if need be) ending the threat.

My first instinct would probably be to get my wife/fam down behind some cover/concealment and end the threat asap, but then there's still the possibility of my fam being in danger...BUT hopefully not for very long.

The problem with option #2 in this situation is that, unless you are the first one to the exit door, your exit will be delayed or possibly blocked altogether with all the chaos going on. Although I do usually try to be somewhere near an exit wherever I go. There's also the possibility that you or fam could get shot in the back while trying to exit...

Lots of possibilities, but I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts here.

[CarbonCycles]

Actually, I like where this discussion is going. You guys are hitting things right on the head. The part regarding CC that makes things unpalatable for me is not knowing whose the threat, and how to maneuver through the mess.

If it was only me, cool...assess the situation and act appropriately (even if that means bugging out), but with my family in tow, things get really interesting. I personally would be outraged to find out Joe Citizen who by all purposes should NOT have been issued a permit had hurt/killed anyone in my family, especially if it was later determined to be negligence (e.g., dude starts to light up the place since he freaked out).

I guess what I'm saying is that CC is a good thing, but we really need to have a higher standard on who can carry. Call me an elitist pr*ck, but I've also seen too many idiots whose mothers should have swallowed/spit issued permits.

Thanks Grant, I can only wish/hope that yourself and the guys I have trained with who are on top of things would be somewhere around if/when the poop starts to fly. Unfortunately, guys like yourself are too far and few between...



This brings up a good topic, that I hope can stay within the confines of the OP...

I have thought about this CO shooting and what I could have possibly done if I were there (and please don't take this as MMQB'ing). First, I would have been there most likely with just my wife, or possibly a couple of other friends or family members...no kids for me yet.

Putting myself (hypothetically) in this situation, I would be torn between ending the threat as quickly as possible OR getting the fam to safety and then (if need be) ending the threat.

My first instinct would probably be to get my wife/fam down behind some cover/concealment and end the threat asap, but then there's still the possibility of my fam being in danger...BUT hopefully not for very long.

The problem with option #2 in this situation is that, unless you are the first one to the exit door, your exit will be delayed or possibly blocked altogether with all the chaos going on. Although I do usually try to be somewhere near an exit wherever I go. There's also the possibility that you or fam could get shot in the back while trying to exit...

Lots of possibilities, but I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts here.

[Ironman8]

I guess what I'm saying is that CC is a good thing, but we really need to have a higher standard on who can carry. Call me an elitist pr*ck, but I've also seen too many idiots whose mothers should have swallowed/spit issued permits.

I agree to an extent. I still don't think that it should exclude anyone except for the people that I mentioned above. That higher standard needs to be achieved through training. Want to carry? Then you gotta train to a standard. My idea for this that I alluded to earlier is similar to the one that Grant mentioned about passing police quals. To take it a step further, I think these quals should be passed annually in order to keep the "permit" valid. But like I said, I don't write policy...

[tb-av]

I would argue that the shooter DID THINK everyone was armed (as he knows CCW is common in his State). This is why he had body armor on and a helmet (as he has expecting a gun fight).

I don't think so Grant. He knew CCW was not allowed in the theater. He also knew there were police or some sort of armed security on duty. Plus to think the citizens were armed would not play into the comic book Batman theme he was living out to some degree.

[gilwankel]

On last Sunday's Fox News show, Feinstein was on talking about the shooting. The question was posed that if more people carried, that the incident could have been stopped. Her comment back was; "What if they shot someone other than the shooter?"

The answer to the question is, yes that can happen. The question that no one wants to ask is, if a CCW holder accidentially shoots a friendly while they stop the bad guy, is that acceptable? In many liberals eyes, that is NOT acceptable. They would prefer to allow the bad guy to kill as many people as they like.

So OP, while I partially agree with your thoughts/concerns, but at the end of the day you can get a friendly on friendly shooting (just like Cops shooting Cops) and innocent people might get hurt in an effort to kill the bad guy and I am fine with that.



C4

And this is why most states have a felony murder law on the books.

[Moltke]

Concealed carry is a good thing. The more people legally carrying the better, the more people with sensible training the better, and the more people who can shoot back at a gun wielding murderer the better. Having, carrying, and using firearms is a RIGHT, not a priviliege - and if you don't treat it as a right then the left is going to take it from you. Hell, they're going to try to take it from you anyway.