next rifle

[moonshot]

I am looking for my 2nd AR15, and I am considering one of these two options. I know neither of these are considered "top shelf", but it may be the best I can afford over the next few months. The two I am considering are...

An off-the-shelf Bushmaster, 16" M4 type Patrolman's Carbine or 16" Heavy Barrel Carbine

or

A J&T Distributors 16" heavy barrel upper mounted on a DoubleStar lower.

For the difference between one of these and a true top shelf rifle (Colt, LMT, Stag) I can buy a lot of ammo and /or receive some excellent training.

I am not a soldier. I'm a middle aged dad on a budget looking for firearms to protect his family. If I really need the top end, fine. But I have to balance having the "best" with having "good enough" plus spares and sufficient ammo to feed it.

Any comments? Am I being stupid (it wouldn't be the first time)?

moonshot

[Jay Cunningham]

Any particular reason you want a heavy barrel? Have you considered the ADS offering from C4IGrant?

[Buck]

May I ask what your budget is??? This makes a huge difference… I think you will get better advice if we have a ballpark of how much you are willing to spend… Then we can offer some suggestions of what we think may fit your needs and your budget…

As to a weapon to be used for self-defense of you and your family; I look at it this way… Whatever weapon system that you choose, and there are several different ones that can be chosen, are you willing to bet your life, and the lives of your family, that every time you press the trigger, that it is going to function correctly??? If you are not comfortable with this bet, you should rethink your needs…

Just my .02

Buck

[ksa464]

I consider Bushmaster and RRA to be "top shelf" as well. So I think you have alot to choose from along with the LMT's and Colts you mentioned. Building one is also an excelent and mostly lower cost option as well.

I have 2; a Colt M16 and a Bushmaster M4 AR's. If I "did" one next, I would work off of a Stag or RRA lower snd go from there.

[moonshot]

OK, a little more info.

The Bushy I can get for about $850 to $900 out the door. The J&T upper and Doublestar lower would run about $650. This price includes a deal on the stripped lower, and the rifle would have to assemble, but I have a good friend who has a lot of experience doing this, and I would certainly learn a lot.

I can afford to spend as much as necessary, and if it ends up being $1500, so be it, but my budget is to spend as little as possible without sacrificing quality. I know that doesn't say much, but there are a lot of items I still wish to acquire and funds are limited.

I am considering a heavy barrel simply for strength. I have read that they survive physical abuse better than thin light barrels. I have no idea if this is true.

I have bought items from Grant before. He seems like a good guy. I saw his LMT offering several months ago, and I have been considering this, but it is a little steep.

Is it worth it? I know you all will say yes, but I am unsure. Is a Lexus worth the extra cost over a Hyundai? Sure, if you can afford it, and if the luxury is important. If all you need is transportation, than perhaps not.

I am unaware of the ADS that Grant offers. I'll have to perform a search.

I have heard many say Colt is the best, but I have also heard many say you are paying for the name and the history. The LMT has a great reputation, but I could buy two J&T/Doublestar rifle kits for the same price. One more family member armed.

I really don't know what is the best way to go. I don't want to be penny-wise and pound-foolish, but I also can't afford to indulge the Walter Mitty in me and buy the coolest gun on my block.

Does any of this make sense? I know I need the advise of the experts on this board.

moonshot

[Rolo Tomasee]

http://www.adsrifles.com/index.htm


I just bought the ADS alpha basic, have'nt recieved it yet but it gets excellent reviews for the money. It is built with quality parts and put together right. I bought mine from Grant

[Buck]

OK, a little more info.

The Bushy I can get for about $850 to $900 out the door. The J&T upper and Doublestar lower would run about $650. This price includes a deal on the stripped lower, and the rifle would have to assemble, but I have a good friend who has a lot of experience doing this, and I would certainly learn a lot.

This is true, and for a plinker that will see light range use I would say go for it… If it fails the most you are out is a little time and $$$ and you can tinker with it as much as you like… But that is not a carbine that I would be willing to bet my life on…

I can afford to spend as much as necessary, and if it ends up being $1500, so be it, but my budget is to spend as little as possible without sacrificing quality. I know that doesn't say much, but there are a lot of items I still wish to acquire and funds are limited.

I would seriously look purchasing a LMT upper, lower, and BCG / CH, and assembling them myself, or asking Grant, ADCO, or another vendor that you trust to assemble an upper and lower for you on a quality forged lower of your choosing…

I am considering a heavy barrel simply for strength. I have read that they survive physical abuse better than thin light barrels. I have no idea if this is true.

It may be “stronger” but it is also not needed… A full 2 inch bull barrel would be stronger still but is also not needed… I believe that HBAR is actually Latin for “unnecessarily heavy”…

I have bought items from Grant before. He seems like a good guy. I saw his LMT offering several months ago, and I have been considering this, but it is a little steep.

Is it worth it? I know you all will say yes, but I am unsure. Is a Lexus worth the extra cost over a Hyundai? Sure, if you can afford it, and if the luxury is important. If all you need is transportation, than perhaps not.

I am not going to tell you where to purchase your carbine; however, I will recommend that you stay with a vendor that has a proven track record and stands behind their product… As far as the LMT deal that Grant had, i.e. LMT carbine with a Knights rail for around a grand, that was an outstanding deal…. If you add up the cost of the Bushmaster carbine you list above with a KAC or DD rail, you could have purchased the LMT with the rail for the same or less if you have to pay sales tax where you live…

A better analogy might be in addition to just passengers, you may need to carry some cargo as well… You can certainly fill the interior of you passenger car with cargo, and leave room to drive; but if you plan on doing it regularly, you may want to look into a truck, and if you do it in the mud, sand or snow, you may want a 4WD too…

I am unaware of the ADS that Grant offers. I'll have to perform a search.

I have never personally handled one so I will reserve judgment…

I have heard many say Colt is the best, but I have also heard many say you are paying for the name and the history. The LMT has a great reputation, but I could buy two J&T/Doublestar rifle kits for the same price. One more family member armed.

The reason that Colt and LMT have such a good reputation is that they turn out carbines of a consistent high quality over a very long period of time… That is not to say that every once in a while a dog does not slip through, but over all they are excellent rifles… Other manufactures can also make a fine carbine. I have an older Bushmaster that is outstanding, but I have seen many more recently produced Bushmasters that are basically a kit, in need of having several parts replaced and being reassembeled by a competent AR smith…

Additionally you may want to look into a nice 870 shotgun with the savings…

I really don't know what is the best way to go. I don't want to be penny-wise and pound-foolish, but I also can't afford to indulge the Walter Mitty in me and buy the coolest gun on my block.

Does any of this make sense? I know I need the advise of the experts on this board.

If you buy any carbine with a quality lower, you can certainly have a reputable smith build it into a weapon that you would be willing to bet your life on, but the cost factor, the parts and labor needed to so, may quickly eat up any savings that you made on the initial purchase…

Just my .02

Buck

[Hootiewho]

If you own any modern automobile, you can factor in several thousand dollars in safety features that are priced into that car. If you have the slightest idea that this rifle may be used to protect your family or yourself, get a good one.

Listen to these guys when they recommend Colt, LMT, Noveske as they are doing so for a reason and it is not because of the rollmark. If you are like all other good little boys, you should have an M4 w/light by your bed at night. If you have to ever use that rifle for what it was made for, you will want to know that you took every step you could to make sure that it will go bang every single time you need it to. If it will fail on you, it will be when you need it most.

If you doubt what people say about the lower tier brands, go take a beginner's carbine class with any of the "better" instructors and there will be one or two there who show up with a "mil-spec" Bushy or cobbled together home build that will demonstrate for the rest of the class, why you should stick with a top tier manufacturer.

[moonshot]

Thanks for all the insight.

I was hoping the high-end rifles were more status symbol than anything else. I guess I was wrong.

I was leaning towards the mid-level brands on the advise of friends. They shoot a hell of a lot more than I, and they have not had any issues with Bushies, RRA, or J&T kits. But I also know none of them have had any kind of serious training, or put their rifles through hard use.

Actually, one friend has - he "worked" with the IDF, but carried an assortment of rifles, none of which was an AR. He has one now, but he still swears by the AK. Oh, well.

I would have no hesitation buying from Grant. I haven't tried any other vendor on this forum, but I have no complaints from his service. If I do go with something like a LMT, doesn't it need to be built? I can't just go to Cabella's and buy one.

Who does that? Would I be foolish to try and save some money by buying a complete LMT upper and putting it on a less expensive lower?

Do I need a "top-tier" lower, or can safely use a lower-end lower? Other than the trigger group, there doesn't seem to be that much to it (I know I just stuck my foot in my mouth).

moonshot

[Deadcenter45]

The upper is where you want to spend your money ... Grant's got a great deal on LMT uppers. I got a sweet deal on an LMT built Lauer Custom Weaponry lower but they are out of stock... most any forged lower will do as long as it is spec, and most are. Differences in them are basically the finish, and rollmark.