Reality Check: Sage M14 at 1000m

[decodeddiesel]

Heard a real whopper at the local fun store, wanted to make sure I wasn't going crazy.

It all started when I asked to see a SCAR 17S and as the fellow behind the counter handed it to me he threw in an unsolicited "that thing is a piece of shit, and an LRB M14 is way better for the money".

I told him that I had time on an M14 in the Army, and as an NRA High-Power shooter in high school, and that I really thought they were too dated and a dinosaur from what I had seen. I told him the Sage EBR M14 I had in 2005 was not that accurate, heavy as hell, and had reliability problems. He looked at me like I had a dick growing out of my forehead. He then said "Who were you with? What year? What were your AOs?" etc. try to somehow invalidate everything I said. He then claimed that any decent long distance shooter should be able to make repeated hits on a 1/2 size IDPA target at 1000 yards with a rack grade M14 in a Sage EBR with a Leupold M3.

When I mentioned that the longest distance training I had with the weapon was at 800 meters, and even at that range it was damn hard to make hits, this served to incense him further. He then once again questioned me to my face about being a veteran, since clearly I was not familiar with the unmatched awesomeness of the Sage M14. To this I set the 1000 rounds of 5.56 ammo I was planning to buy on the counter and walked out, with him chuckling about it with his buddies and saying "no way he served, dumbass".

Lesson learned, I have spent thousands of dollars at that store, however I will not spend a cent in the future. It really went to hell in the past 3 or 4 years.

Still though, rack grade 1960s surplus M14, stock everything, Sage EBR stock, Leupold M3, accurate to 1000 yards? No f'ing way.

ETA: One other thing that he mentioned was that he was "in" from 1994 - 1997 and that he had "trigger time" on an M14. Who, aside from the Coast Guard and the Navy, was using the M14 to such an extent that an E1 - E4 would have been using it during this time period? My bullshit alarm was going off like crazy when he mentioned that.

[wild_wild_wes]

I once shot on a 1,000 yard Tactical rifle match. When I was pulling butts, the two guys who were shooting at the target I was scoring, and the one next to me, both had M-14s, and their hits started to get wild at 700. One of them was not allowed to go to 800, and the one who did, his rounds were hitting the dirt mostly, and the ones that hit paper were often passing through sideways. So he didn't even get to 900.

[decodeddiesel]

We had pop-up ivans when I was shooting them, so I didn't get a chance to see the bullet holes. I could however see that hitting one of those damn things 800m away with an M14 was a damn trick. I am not one of those people who think 308 somehow stops at 800 yards, I mean I have made shots at that kind of range with an M24 and I have seen shooters make 1000 yard hits with semi-auto 308s before too...just not an M14.

[goodoleboy]

Is the M-14 platform capable of making hits at that distance? Yes. Is a RACK GRADE M14 capable of making consistent hits at that distance, not really.

My father was on the 4th Infantry Division Rifle Team from 1964-1966, shot in the All Army Matches, etc. and they used the M-14 in all their competitions, including their 1000 yard matches. He actually has a trophy from the 1966 Texas State Matches where he won the 1000 yard competition with a heavilly modified M-14.

I would be highly skeptical of someone who told me they took a surplus M-14 and made consistent hits at that distance, especially without a spotter.

[Reagans Rascals]

I don't understand.... why would he shit talk a product that he himself carries and might have a possible sale on... unless he had an LRB M1A sitting right there, and was hoping to make an upsale to a more expensive weapon... I don't understand why he would open his mouth.. do people not have common sense these days?

You don't walk up to a guy looking to buy a new truck and say "oh man that thing's a piece of shit... yeah you'd be better off with that old 1974 farm truck in the back..."

actually **** yourself out of a possible sale...

he is his own blue falcon...

I'm going to start calling that entire type of just uninhibited, unsolicited bullshit gun store talk.... G.S.A..... Gun Store Asperger's

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

I don't understand.... why would he shit talk a product that he himself carries and might have a possible sale on... unless he had an LRB M1A sitting right there, and was hoping to make an upsale to a more expensive weapon... I don't understand why he would open his mouth.. do people not have common sense these days?

You don't walk up to a guy looking to buy a new truck and say "oh man that thing's a piece of shit... yeah you'd be better off with that old 1974 farm truck in the back..."

actually **** yourself out of a possible sale...

he is his own blue falcon...

I'm going to start calling that entire type of just uninhibited, unsolicited bullshit gun store talk.... G.S.A..... Gun Store Asperger's

That's what I wAs going to say. I love my time with the rifle but rack grade is luck of the draw. If u get a consistent shooter even if it's a 2 moa gun hits are possable. But that guy was a boner face all the way.

[Jack-O]

I used a scoped M14 in the AF around 94-95. it was an EOD weapon they used for stand off detonations or something. had a redfield scope on it and they got some M118LR to go with it.

IMO your assessment of the m14 is correct. I just got rid of a very very nice one that was well set up, and while I certainly was fond of it and loved the way and how it shot, it was limited by it's design and now more so by parts cost and availability. it's an old system and relegated to those hangers-on and folks who are emotionally attached to it. When something better came out I broke my attachment to it and moved on.

[Pistolero]

I don't understand.... why would he shit talk a product that he himself carries and might have a possible sale on... unless he had an LRB M1A sitting right there, and was hoping to make an upsale to a more expensive weapon... I don't understand why he would open his mouth.. do people not have common sense these days?

You don't walk up to a guy looking to buy a new truck and say "oh man that thing's a piece of shit... yeah you'd be better off with that old 1974 farm truck in the back..."

actually **** yourself out of a possible sale...

he is his own blue falcon...

I'm going to start calling that entire type of just uninhibited, unsolicited bullshit gun store talk.... G.S.A..... Gun Store Asperger's

This is more common than you might think. About 2 years ago the son of a friend of mine wanted to get into AR's, and loved my SR-15. We went to one of the better local shops that carried them, said we wanted to see it and the sales guy promptly told us that the olympic on the wall for $800 was all the gun we would ever need, and then proceeded to rather aggressively tell me how staked gas keys were not needed and the kac offered nothing over the olympic. Needless to say we ended up buying elsewhere.

[Reagans Rascals]

I think these kinds of workers need to be brought to the attention of the management or owners.... I highly doubt they'd appreciate their sales force basically ****ing the company out of money and giving bullshit advice.... unless it is the management and/or owners do it... in that case I'd promptly ask who's dick they sucked to get an FFL and excuse myself....

I can understand trying to sell what you have on the shelf if the customer comes in and asks to see something you don't have... like say you have a COLT on the shelf and the customer asks to see if you have any Knights in stock.... yeah then I could see saying well you'd be better off just getting this COLT we have in stock because its just as good and blah blah blah... because you are trying to persuade them to make a purchase with what you have and not go else where....

but how the **** do you run your mouth to persuade someone AGAINST making an expensive purchase for what you do have in stock???

Unless there is more of a profit margin on their shittier guns so they are trying to persuade you into a money maker for them...

either way these people need to take a ****in sales class or work a ****in job in retail somewhere where they can actually learn strategies... just my .50

[Heavy Metal]

Heard a real whopper at the local fun store, wanted to make sure I wasn't going crazy.

It all started when I asked to see a SCAR 17S and as the fellow behind the counter handed it to me he threw in an unsolicited "that thing is a piece of shit, and an LRB M14 is way better for the money".

I told him that I had time on an M14 in the Army, and as an NRA High-Power shooter in high school, and that I really thought they were too dated and a dinosaur from what I had seen. I told him the Sage EBR M14 I had in 2005 was not that accurate, heavy as hell, and had reliability problems. He looked at me like I had a dick growing out of my forehead. He then said "Who were you with? What year? What were your AOs?" etc. try to somehow invalidate everything I said. He then claimed that any decent long distance shooter should be able to make repeated hits on a 1/2 size IDPA target at 1000 yards with a rack grade M14 in a Sage EBR with a Leupold M3.

When I mentioned that the longest distance training I had with the weapon was at 800 meters, and even at that range it was damn hard to make hits, this served to incense him further. He then once again questioned me to my face about being a veteran, since clearly I was not familiar with the unmatched awesomeness of the Sage M14. To this I set the 1000 rounds of 5.56 ammo I was planning to buy on the counter and walked out, with him chuckling about it with his buddies and saying "no way he served, dumbass".

Lesson learned, I have spent thousands of dollars at that store, however I will not spend a cent in the future. It really went to hell in the past 3 or 4 years.

Still though, rack grade 1960s surplus M14, stock everything, Sage EBR stock, Leupold M3, accurate to 1000 yards? No f'ing way.

ETA: One other thing that he mentioned was that he was "in" from 1994 - 1997 and that he had "trigger time" on an M14. Who, aside from the Coast Guard and the Navy, was using the M14 to such an extent that an E1 - E4 would have been using it during this time period? My bullshit alarm was going off like crazy when he mentioned that.

Rifle team shooter.

That said, anyone who has that kind of faith in a rack-grade M-14 is a dildo.