Which Leupold scope?

[orkan]

They are quality scopes none the less

I guess that depends on your definition of quality. Roughly 25% of MK4's need to turn around and go straight back to the factory brand new out of the box?

They are a terrible scope.

The MK6 and MK8's are better, but still nowhere near that of other companies products.

Take a USO 1-8 and compare it to either the mk6 or mk8... and you'll see what I mean. No comparison at all. None.

[Dirk Williams]

Sorry to disagree, I have a LR on a 300wm. The scope functions great, does everything its supposed to do. Is it my favorite, nope. Would I purchase another one, not with some of the great new scopes on the market.

I just think its not right to throw a company like them under the bus cuz you disagree. Many many agency's are still
Urchasing and shooting these scopes. If 25 percent are getting shipped backed be surprised.

Orkan many of us listen to your advise long gun specific. Do you own or have you shot any of these scopes.

DW

[taliv]

i wouldn't say leupold is complete junk. it's not like countersniper or barska or ncstar. they just lack the features of other brands, and are way overpriced. i wouldn't buy one. but if i had one, i wouldn't throw it away.

they do have some good scopes. for example, their extreme varmint which sat on my 220swift for years is awesome for that application. 6-24x, 1/10th MOA knobs!! a 56mm objective with the L divot in the bottom that lets you mount it lower, and a very good reticle for varmints. for that application, you don't need FFP, or locking turrets or any of that stuff. (although, zero stop would still be nice)

and the leupold mk4 compact spotter is the best i have seen at any price.

i had a vx3 long-range tactical back at the turn of the century. i thought it was pretty dang cool back then. i mostly shot at paper back then though.

[orkan]

Do you own or have you shot any of these scopes.

I wouldn't be talking about them otherwise.

I buy a leupold ever few years JUST TO SEE if they have changed. I bought a MK4 about a year ago... and it was the same pile of dogshit that it was 2 years prior to that, and 3 years prior to that. After mounting it and verifying that IT DID NOT TRACK properly, and that the turrets were the same mushy crap with no zero stop and low count turrets... I sold it for a loss.

I currently own FFP scopes by:
USO
S&B
Premier
IOR
Vortex
Nightforce
Falcon
Bushnell

At one point I was just like some of the fools that follow leupold around like a puppy on a string. I owned over a dozen vari-X 3 scopes and about 5 mark 4's... and I ran around telling people how great they were when I really had no experience with TRULY great scopes like nightforce and USO. That experience, is one of the things that has led me to NOT TALK about shit I don't have personal first hand knowledge of.

I'd rather have my $400 4-16 piece of shit falcon than a leupold mark 4. That is no bullshit. The clicks on that falcon are more crisp and tactile than any mark 4 I've ever used. Not all falcons are that way, but I have a good one. It sits on rimfires and crap I don't care about or shoot often.

The vortex PST FFP scopes are 5 times the scope that a mark 4 is. They have an illuminated reticle, crisp turrets with zero stop, easy to adjust to the specific tenth mil you are after, better glass, better eyebox, and better magnification ring. I could probably go on.

From Liberty Optics:
Leupold MK 4 4.5-14X50MM M1 TMR FFP MAT $1,599.99
Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP Riflescope $899.99

You don't need to be very good at math to see which way to go.

So, disagree all you like. Your ONE scope doing what its suppose to is hardly a measure of a company or their product offering. If you really want to be shown why your scope isn't nearly as good as you think it is... we can put together a little test. I'll setup a webcam session for us... and we can have a third party give us DOPE and we'll see who gets it in our rifle first.

[orkan]

I feel the need to address this separately.

Orkan many of us listen to your advise long gun specific.

I take a huge amount of pride in the fact that when I tell someone something... it is so. I don't sugar coat things, and that turns people off... but that doesn't STOP IT BEING SO.

I don't think all people that disagree with me are stupid. If they disagree, and they have more experience than I have... then they could be right or they could be too stuck in their ways to accept that they are wrong and change. It's easy for me to tell the difference.

Those that are right have vastly more experience than I and can fully explain their choices with complete detail and answer ANY question about that topic which I would ask. This almost never happens. I always end up agreeing with these types of people in the first place, because I find that intelligent people that speak from experience are very often led to the exact same conclusions.

Those that are wrong, and stuck in their ways often KNOW they are wrong... or at least know of the possibility they may be wrong, but will not concede the point because they have a mental disorder of some kind.

I do ask that people listen to me. I do NOT ask that people obey me. Listening just means hearing and comprehending what I'm saying. What you do with it after that is up to you. The mark of an intelligent man is one that listens to something and then proves or disproves it for himself.

So if a person has no experience, how can they arbitrarily disagree unless they have a mental disorder? I don't disagree or agree with anything unless I have great personal experience with the topic at hand. If I don't have experience, then I don't know. If I care to know... then I go find out by seeking experience.

Dirk, if you are going to say you disagree with my assessment of leupold products, you better be able to tell me that you've used all of the top end competing products, as I have. Then you better be able to give me a run-down spec for spec on why the leupold offering is better, and how each feature on it allows you engage the target better.

If you can't do that... then your disagreement is dismissed by me without a seconds thought or effort.

[AR15barrels]

I take a huge amount of pride in the fact that when I tell someone something... it is so. I don't sugar coat things, and that turns people off... but that doesn't STOP IT BEING SO.

<snipped for brevity>

If you can't do that... then your disagreement is dismissed by me without a seconds thought or effort.

I like your style.
I do it the same way.

[Dirk Williams]

WOW, Orkan you feeling a bit butt hurt? Listen mate I appreciate your reviews and simply asked about your exposure to that series of scopes.

Sounds like have grown up with the mark4 . I wonder why the military and many many law enforcement agency's across this nation are still using them.

I would agree that my mark4 is not my favorite scope yet Im able to make it work for me. I haven't experienced the issues you have with the two scopes I have and have shot 1000s of rounds over.

For what it's worth some of our nations best shooters are shooting the mk4s in the box as I defend Leopolds honor here.

Keep upthe good reviews I enjoy your work.

DW

[orkan]

Dirk... I'm not butt hurt in the slightest. If you read my reviews and read my posts here, why would you even question my exposure to the scopes? You should know that I don't open my mouth unless I have a great deal of personal experience.

I did grow up with mk4's and variX 3's. Times change.

I wonder why the military and many many law enforcement agency's across this nation are still using them.

You were obviously never in the military or law enforcement. If you were... you would know that they use what they are issued. They don't use it because it's the best. They use it because that is what they have!

I would agree that my mark4 is not my favorite scope yet Im able to make it work for me

That's what the military guys do. You have a choice to buy better shit. They only have that choice sometimes. To knowingly handicap yourself when you have a CHOICE of better gear at lower prices is ridiculous.

For what it's worth some of our nations best shooters are shooting the mk4s in the box

Not true. Even if it was, it doesn't mean shit. That only means they used what they had and performed the mission. It's their JOB. Not a single one of them would rather have a mk4 on their rifle as opposed to a USO, S&B, or nightforce. Even so, all the units with mk4's are replacing them as fast as politics and budgets allow.

If Leupold's are so awesome... then why did this happen last year?
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...cope-contract/

or this:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...yscopes-06382/

or this:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-scopes-01129/

Christ... leupold hasn't won a military contract for long range rifle systems in YEARS. This is the closest they've come lately:
http://www.ammoland.com/2011/04/27/u...#axzz235xWGBs2

The point being that the shooters in our nations military that are still using leupold mk4's is because they are STUCK with them. It's not a choice, it's a lack of options. Did you happen to watch sniper comp? The newest DVD about the Ft Benning competition where snipers from all over the world come to compete? I can count on one hand the number of mk4's I saw in that video.

as I defend Leopolds honor here.

Defend their honor all you want. They have good customer service. They stand behind their products and replace them for customers with issues as needed. That makes them honorable. Their honor has shit to do with their product. Defend them as a company if you like... but don't defend their shitty product like an ostrich with your head in the sand. That is how leupold got in this situation. The world changed and so did the needs of shooters. Leupold put their head in the sand and refused to listen to shooters that were screaming out for a new product. ALL of the other manufacturers on my list earlier in this thread took advantage of leupold's stupidity... and are flourishing as a result. Leupold realized this. ... just way late. Now they are playing catch up.

It's not about honor. It's about what works and what doesn't. It's not about brand names. It's about features.

If leupold comes out with a competitive product that results in me being able to hit the target faster, easier, or more reliably... I'll be the first to suggest people purchase it.

RIGHT NOW, today, as you read this... Leupold does not have anything for a long range rifle that another manufacturer doesn't have better or cheaper. This is a fact.

[Dirk Williams]

Hey, thanks for the return. I read your reviews I agree with you most of the time but not all the time. Are you a cop, or in the military.

For what it's worth I'm a 24 year retired police officer and deputy sheriff in two states. I also did 8 years active duty and 4years reserves. Also did 4 years DOD after mil service.

We can disagree until the cows come home. The fact is there are tier 1 mil shooting the mark4 as I write this back to you. Actually it makes my point good shooters can make anything work.
Guys like us are spoiled we have resources and can build or buy what we believe is in our best interest.

Every scope you mentioned as solid has gone thru down turns.
Keep up the good work just because I tend to ask or state this stuff, doesn't mean I'm dogging you.

In fact I'd like your opinion on the Leica vino range finders if you,ever get the chance to review them.

Have a good one.
Dirk

[orkan]

5 years as a combat engineer in the army. 1 year as an abrams tanker.

Not sure what you mean by "down turns." All scopes can break.

I never argued the fact that good shooters can make anything work. Simo Häyhä has the largest confirmed sniper kill-count and did it with a mosin nagant, shooting over 500 russians in less than 100 days.

You're obviously emotionally invested in leupold. I'm not continuing this because I care if you change your mind. I don't. I'm continuing this because I don't want people thinking that the choice between leupold and others is like 6 of one half-dozen of the other. It's not.

Lets talk specifics about two models that I would say are direct competitors.

Leupold Mark 4 ER/T 4.5-14x50mm FFP, M5 turrets (110075)
- VS -
Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50mm FFP (pst416f1m)

What does the leupold do that the vortex doesn't do at $700 less money?

The vortex has zero stop. The leupold doesn't.
The vortex has precise clicks. The leupold doesn't.
The vortex has illumination. The leupold doesn't.
The vortex has a forgiving eyebox. The leupold doesn't.
The vortex has outstanding low-light performance. The leupold doesn't.
The vortex is 4-16x, while the leupold is only 4.5-14x.
On low magnification, the vortex has almost 8ft more FOV at 100yds.
On high magnification, the vortex has less than 1ft less FOV than the leupold, despite it having 16x magnification vs 14x.

Do a search for "leupold tracking problem" and read the horror stories. Try a similar search about vortex PST's.

PST's are not flawless, but vortex takes care of those users the same as leupold does.

So where is the extra $700? It's not in the damn scope... that's for sure.