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Thread: ATF 4473 Question

  1. #21
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    It is a long read, but here is a link to the indictment against Cav Arms and Shawn Nealon. You will find they had bigger issues than selling to an out of state individual. I know this is only an indictment, but somewhere I have a link to the plea agreement as well. In the plea agreement Nealon acknowledges in the facts of the case that all of the allegations in the indictment are true.

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6KR...it?hl=en&pli=1

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    You are correct.

    But every since the Cav Arms thing I've been concerned. If it could happen then, it could happen to anyone.

    I don't know how you can come to that conclusion after reading the indictment on cav arms.

    They had multiple instances of selling guns to CA people who had no property in AZ. They also had multiple instances of cover up in their records to hide this activity.
    "Not every thing on Earth requires an aftermarket upgrade." demigod/markm

  3. #23
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    Illegally manufacturing firearms with a 3rd party that did not possess a manufacturing license

    Multiple instances of selling firearms to CA people who had no property in AZ and could not claim AZ residency

    Incomplete 4473s and the A&D book to cover up this activity

    Failure to report disposition of multiple handguns

    Failure to report annual production numbers to the ATF

    ITAR violations

    Unregistered NFA weapons

    Obliterated serial number on a firearm

    Unaccounted for firearms in inventory
    Last edited by scottryan; 08-13-12 at 21:52.
    "Not every thing on Earth requires an aftermarket upgrade." demigod/markm

  4. #24
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    I purchased two cans in April and I did a 4473. No NICS check was completed.
    "Perfect Practice Makes Perfect"
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  5. #25
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    I copied the below quote from the indictment. In addition to Cav Arms attorney admitting to it, ATF interviewed workers at the company molding the receiver halves for them. The employees logged over 6,000 left halves and 6,000 right halves. This was mentioned in the plea agreement.

    "106. Although Cavalry Arms’ attorney acknowledged to ATF that Cavalry Arms had manufactured more than 6,000 receivers (classified as “firearms” by FTB and as defined as a“firearm” under the GCA) to avoid a recall, Cavalry Arms had reported to ATF in its required Annual Firearms Manufacturing and Exportation Reports that it had manufactured only 659 firearms since its inception in 2000."

    I don't see how any of this had anything to do with Fast and Furious.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    It is a long read, but here is a link to the indictment against Cav Arms and Shawn Nealon. You will find they had bigger issues than selling to an out of state individual. I know this is only an indictment, but somewhere I have a link to the plea agreement as well. In the plea agreement Nealon acknowledges in the facts of the case that all of the allegations in the indictment are true.

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6KR...it?hl=en&pli=1

    I've read it.

    I also have some personal knowledge that isn't on the internet.

    I also know Shawn took the plea. His business was destroyed and he was facing jail and financial devastation. Lots of people take the plea.

    Being "right" doesn't mean anything. ATF has unlimited resources, Shawn didn't. ATF could drag the case out for as long as necessary, Shawn couldn't.

    Like I said, it was a huge wake up call for me.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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  7. #27
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    I too have some knowledge that is not on the internet. I have met Shawn but do not know him. I do know Warren Mee and several others that worked for Cav Arms and Ameetec.

    Bottom line is, the info in the plea agreement was factual.

    I guess if you have a different opinion, we will just have to disagree.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    I copied the below quote from the indictment. In addition to Cav Arms attorney admitting to it, ATF interviewed workers at the company molding the receiver halves for them. The employees logged over 6,000 left halves and 6,000 right halves. This was mentioned in the plea agreement.

    "106. Although Cavalry Arms’ attorney acknowledged to ATF that Cavalry Arms had manufactured more than 6,000 receivers (classified as “firearms” by FTB and as defined as a“firearm” under the GCA) to avoid a recall, Cavalry Arms had reported to ATF in its required Annual Firearms Manufacturing and Exportation Reports that it had manufactured only 659 firearms since its inception in 2000."

    I don't see how any of this had anything to do with Fast and Furious.
    There was a whole "legal to do at this location/not legal to do at that location" issues that was central to that point.

    Basically they were hoping for guns headed to Mexico. When they didn't find anything like that, they found a bunch of other shit.

    There were some definite problems like sloppy record keeping. But there was nothing "willful" regarding serious crimes.

    Again, the CA guy had a valid state ID that listed an AZ address. If anyone is guilty of anything it is the state of AZ for issuing a state ID to a non resident.

    FFLs are not detectives. They rely on state IDs and NICS to tell them who is approved and non approved for weapons transfers. That the guy worked out an arrangement for local storage has nothing to do with anything.

    Now IF the guy did NOT have a state ID and /or failed the NICS check and Cav Arms completed the transaction THEN you'd have a really big issue. But that is not what happened.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

    كافر

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    I too have some knowledge that is not on the internet. I have met Shawn but do not know him. I do know Warren Mee and several others that worked for Cav Arms and Ameetec.

    Bottom line is, the info in the plea agreement was factual.

    I guess if you have a different opinion, we will just have to disagree.
    I do know Shawn and Russ personally.

    Regarding the plea agreement, yes it is a factual plea agreement. But again, lot's of people take the plea because they don't want to risk the time and money. That doesn't mean everything in the plea or indictment actually happened.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

    كافر

  10. #30
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    I am not certain you understood what I meant by factual. I meant the allegations in the complaint and plea agreement actually occurred.

    We are way of the OP's topic, but the importation of OKO sights, manufacture of unregistered suppressors, machinguns... was willful in my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

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