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Thread: ATF 4473 Question

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by az doug View Post
    I am not certain you understood what I meant by factual. I meant the allegations in the complaint and plea agreement actually occurred.

    We are way of the OP's topic, but the importation of OKO sights, manufacture of unregistered suppressors, machinguns... was willful in my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

    I must be out of the loop, but why would OKO sights not be importable?

    As far as manufacturing unregistered NFA items, that happens to the big boys too sometimes. This is a sloppy paperwork issue. Granted it is more severe to not do NFA registration in a timely manner than screw up 4473s.

    But here is the KEY DIFFERENCE.

    It is one thing for a NFA manufacturer to make some cans and fun guns without taking care of the paperwork first for PERSONAL USE. It is of course STUPID but I've seen it plenty of times before.

    It is quite another to make these items and then offer them for sale officially or unofficially. Cav Arms never did that. Lots of NFA manufacturers make R&D cans, test them out and then band saw them for scrap after recording results without ever registering them.

    Again, it's a stupid thing to do. But it isn't exactly a serious crime. In all reality it was a paperwork issue. They should have been told to register them or forfeit them, that is ALL that should have happened. I can't tell you how many AZ gunsmiths I'm aware of (some of whom aren't even SOTs) who have off the books cans and DIAS. In most cases these are "in the floor" items kept "in case shit gets bad" and sometimes they get shot out in the desert. But they really aren't doing anything to contribute to criminal activity.

    Is it illegal to do that? Absolutely. Is it a really stupid thing to potentially destroy your life over? You bet. But was it willful activity done for criminal purposes? Not in this case, not in most cases. And it's as stupid as prosecuting people for illegal shoe laces and rubber washers.

    So perhaps that is the difference in our perspectives on this issue.
    Last edited by SteyrAUG; 08-14-12 at 01:50.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

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  2. #32
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    You need to read the plea and or indictment regarding the OKO sights. They are lawful to import as long as you follow the import regulations.

    I believe you are referring to the severity/seriousness of the crime committed when you refer to willfulness. Knowingly committing a crime, regardless of how severe that crime is, to me is willful.

    I can agree with you regarding the severity of the crimes committed.

    As to the Az gunsmiths you refer to, I will not have any sympathy for them if caught. They too are willfully committing a crime. It may not be a severe/serious crime, but a criminal act none the less.

    I do believe that the laws making these items unlawful should be repealed.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post

    Again, the CA guy had a valid state ID that listed an AZ address. If anyone is guilty of anything it is the state of AZ for issuing a state ID to a non resident.

    FFLs are not detectives. They rely on state IDs and NICS to tell them who is approved and non approved for weapons transfers. That the guy worked out an arrangement for local storage has nothing to do with anything.

    The guy from CA fraudulently obtained the AZ state ID even though it was a real ID . The owner of cav arms also was enabling this situation by storing weapons for the guy from CA, and knowing fully well that the guy from CA was not an AZ resident.
    Last edited by scottryan; 08-14-12 at 08:29.
    "Not every thing on Earth requires an aftermarket upgrade." demigod/markm

  4. #34
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    For whatever reason, there are a lot of AZ dealers who think they can thumb their nose at ATF.

    I don't get it... They have profitable businesses... but they insist on doing retarded stuff to draw the ATF into their shit.

    Like my buddy says... "typical Arizona fly by night gun company".
    "You people have too much time on your hands." - scottryan

  5. #35
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    Working in an AZ FFL has opened my eyes to some really screwy shit on both sides of the counter.

    Mark, you don't have to be fly by night to get caught up in ATF BS.

    Chris

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCK View Post
    Mark, you don't have to be fly by night to get caught up in ATF BS.
    True.. but there's just a monkey ass culture here in AZ. There's legit dealers all around... but there's been a lot of numb nuts who've done really dumb stuff and crashed what appeared to be profitable businesses.
    "You people have too much time on your hands." - scottryan

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottryan View Post
    The guy from CA fraudulently obtained the AZ state ID even though it was a real ID . The owner of cav arms also was enabling this situation by storing weapons for the guy from CA, and knowing fully well that the guy from CA was not an AZ resident.

    So it sounds like the CA guy was a criminal. I don't think it is a crime to store guns. That is the key issue. Cav Arms knows only what they are told (according to some of my customers I am a supplier to Navy SEALs), FFLs rely upon state IDs and NICS checks to sort out who is who.

    If the guy fraudulently obtained a state ID then "he" and the state of AZ are to blame. Perhaps if it wasn't so easy for the average illegal from Mexico to get a state ID this never would have been an issue in the first place.

    But more importantly, if he had no legal AZ residence, how did he pass a NICS check? FFLs rely on these things (not intuition or customer stories) to determine who they may transfer guns to. I can only imagine the shitstorm that would end up on TOS if somebody had posted "Bought a gun, passed NICS and those ****ers from Cav Arms wouldn't complete the transaction."

    At any rate, I really don't feel like retrying the Cav Arms case. People have already decided what they believe and I doubt I'm going to change anything. There is also a LOT I can't say about it so it would be pointless to try and change anyone's mind.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    I don't think it is a crime to store guns. That is the key issue.

    No it isn't the key issue.

    The CA guy had a fake AZ residency with one of cav arms buddies and the owner of cav arms knew about it the whole time and still sold him guns anyway.

    Him storing them for him was just icing on the cake for the ATF.
    Last edited by scottryan; 08-14-12 at 18:27.
    "Not every thing on Earth requires an aftermarket upgrade." demigod/markm

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottryan View Post
    No it isn't the key issue.

    The CA guy had a fake AZ residency with one of cav arms buddies and the owner of cav arms knew about it the whole time and still sold him guns anyway.

    Him storing them for him was just icing on the cake for the ATF.
    If he was issued a state ID it sounds like valid residency to me. The fact that he didn't pay rent doesn't mean he didn't have a valid AZ ID.

    Also the owners of Cav Arms shouldn't have to be a detective and start an investigation of who is a legal roommate or not. He relies upon state IDs and NICS to tell him if he is allowed to complete a transaction.

    Again, state of AZ and NICS is at fault if there wasn't legal residency.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

    كافر

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