Thinking of selling my M&P9

[ToddG]

556: I worked for SIG for five years, and carried various SIG pistols during that time, both TDA and DAK (though much more the TDA, which I prefer) in 9mm, 357 SIG, and .45 Auto. Before that I was working at Beretta and carried various 92-series pistols, all 'G' (decocker-only TDA) models.

Again, I'm certainly not advocating the TDA over SFA, SAO, or DAO. Each has its plusses and minuses. Something I wrote (half in jest) for my site a few months ago:

Actions in action

One day a hundred or so years ago, a man built the first semiautomatic pistol. It was an ingenious thing, a gun that could load itself and fire many rounds from a single magazine. He made it so that one could have a short and light trigger which makes it easy to hit what one aims at.

Then someone said, whoa brother, something might touch the trigger when it’s not supposed to and fire the gun accidentally, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the manual safety was created, so that there was a way to prevent one from using the short and light trigger except when absolutely intended.

Then someone said, whoa brother, sometimes I forget to take the safety off and I cannot fire my gun, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the double action pistol was created, so that one could fire one’s pistol without dealing with a pesky safety while still having a reasonably hard time of making loud noises unintentionally.

Then someone said, whoa brother, it is hard to learn two different trigger pulls and often I forget to decock my pistol before holstering, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the double action only was created, so that one could enjoy the safety of a long heavy trigger pull every time and thus avoid ventilating one’s own leg.

Then someone said, whoa brother, your trigger pull is too long and too heavy and I cannot hit anything I shoot at, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the striker-fired pistol was created, so that one could have a short and light trigger which makes it easy to hit what one aims at.

Then someone said, whoa brother, something might touch the trigger when it’s not supposed to and fire the gun accidentally …

[jar420]

556: I worked for SIG for five years, and carried various SIG pistols during that time, both TDA and DAK (though much more the TDA, which I prefer) in 9mm, 357 SIG, and .45 Auto. Before that I was working at Beretta and carried various 92-series pistols, all 'G' (decocker-only TDA) models.

Again, I'm certainly not advocating the TDA over SFA, SAO, or DAO. Each has its plusses and minuses. Something I wrote (half in jest) for my site a few months ago:

Actions in action

One day a hundred or so years ago, a man built the first semiautomatic pistol. It was an ingenious thing, a gun that could load itself and fire many rounds from a single magazine. He made it so that one could have a short and light trigger which makes it easy to hit what one aims at.

Then someone said, whoa brother, something might touch the trigger when it’s not supposed to and fire the gun accidentally, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the manual safety was created, so that there was a way to prevent one from using the short and light trigger except when absolutely intended.

Then someone said, whoa brother, sometimes I forget to take the safety off and I cannot fire my gun, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the double action pistol was created, so that one could fire one’s pistol without dealing with a pesky safety while still having a reasonably hard time of making loud noises unintentionally.

Then someone said, whoa brother, it is hard to learn two different trigger pulls and often I forget to decock my pistol before holstering, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the double action only was created, so that one could enjoy the safety of a long heavy trigger pull every time and thus avoid ventilating one’s own leg.

Then someone said, whoa brother, your trigger pull is too long and too heavy and I cannot hit anything I shoot at, for I cannot be bothered to learn the manual of arms. So the striker-fired pistol was created, so that one could have a short and light trigger which makes it easy to hit what one aims at.

Then someone said, whoa brother, something might touch the trigger when it’s not supposed to and fire the gun accidentally …

This has to be one of the coolest things I've read in a long time....awesome work!

[556]

10-4 Todd;

The safety is between the ears.....

Then again, who of us here have NEVER had an AD/UD or ND........

I don't see any hands....

I carry a SAO 90% of the time and a wheel gun the other......can shoot both actions just as well.

I recently pick up a M&P and can shoot it just fine also.....but just can't seem to give up my 1911 for serious stuff.

[Robb Jensen]

Good info Todd. I've used the below saying a little for the last few years when people complain to me that this or that handgun isn't accurate.

"The lack of accuracy is almost always a software problem and not a problem with the hardware. Different hardware isn't going to make up for a lack of skill."---Robb Jensen

[John_Wayne777]

There are few things in life as amusing as watching Ernest Langdon explain to a world-class shooter that um, no, if you know what you're doing shooting a DA gun is actually not that hard at all. We then went three days shooting over 3,600 rounds apiece proving that shooting a DA gun is actually not that hard at all.

1. Ernie is the man. He worked up my Beretta 92.

2. While I think the DA/SA transition is overblown by a lot of people, there is some validity to the gripes about it. For the last couple of years I've done the vast majority of my handgun shooting with a 1911, and in the last year my M&P. When my M&P's front sight crapped out on me in the Low Light class in November I resorted to using my Langdon Tactical Technologies customized Beretta 92 because the night sights on it were functional.

I found myself having sucky-first-shot-itis with my 92...something I had never experienced before. I had to dedicate more mental attention to trigger control for a while. Thanks to lots of training rounds on my Berettas and a fantastic trigger job by Mr. Langdon that didn't last too long, and I was soon using my 92 naturally. On the second night of the LL course we had to shoot some steel and I zipped through a number of targets lickety split without a single clock cycle of brain power dedicated to pulling the trigger right.

Still, I was surprised that I struggled a bit since most of my handgun training has been done with DA/SA guns.

Now I said all of that to lay the background to presenting JW777's Unified Theory of Trigger Control:

If somebody is used to shooting a semi-auto with a "short" trigger pull such as the Glock, the M&P, the 1911, etc they may well find that the DA/SA transition hurts their accuracy. This, of course, can be corrected by proper training and practice with the DA/SA weapon.

It seems to me there are lots of guys out there who are used to shooting Glocks (Yuk!!). All the muscle memory they have built up from shooting the combat tupperware isn't going to take to the DA trigger right off the bat. Some may even require a lot of training to program their brains properly.

While I would agree with anyone that Mr. Langdon's abilities are exceptional, mine certainly aren't (Robb can testify to this...he was on the line at Blackwater when I put a round in the berm with the DA pull on a Sig P220 I was using in training.....Instructor:"Wow...that was the fastest miss I have ever seen. Good job.") ....thus if I can get to the point where DA/SA is no longer a problem I would argue that ANYONE can.

[mark5pt56]

I tell you, when we had the DAO Smith's, my trigger control was outstanding. Talk about working a trigger w/o influencing the gun!

Gave my alot of respect for the revolver shooters.

In all seriousness, I think it would help alot of people.

They would be more effective? Define that. If you're suggesting that there would be a significant enough difference in skill level and performance that it would likely change the outcome of a fight, I challenge you to prove it. I've trained complete beginners and experienced shooters, and in ten years I've found without doubt that it is the shooter & instructor, not the gun which determines how much a student learns and how skilled he becomes.

I never felt it mattered in real world shoots. We had them with the DOA's and we actually had better hits.(not bragging about teaching the ones involved though) Quality over quantity.

[ToddG]

Agreed 100% with what you guys are saying.

Rich Verdi (now at SIG Academy) and I taught a class at West Point last year. Rich spent his entire law enforcement career using DA guns and is one of the most accomplished LE pistol shooters I know. However, he'd been using a M&P for a while and that had been where all his practice had gone. He started the class carrying a tuned up Beretta, but he wasn't happy with his performance on his first demo because he had become "unaccustomed" to the TDA trigger stroke. He switched back to the M&P for the rest of the class.

Months later, Rich decided to devote his efforts to SIG pistols and I imagine he now shoots them better than he's ever shot anything.

I've put literally hundreds of thousands of rounds through TDA guns and consider them an outstanding choice for someone who devotes time to learning it. Having said that, after 24k rounds of dedicated practice through my M&P, there's no question that I'd sound like a monkey on a typewriter if I tried to shoot a TDA Beretta or SIG at top speed right now.

Which was sort of my point from the beginning. It's much more a matter of familiarity and training, and much less a matter of the gun's action, which determines whether a pistol is workable or not.

[Lumpy196]

Lumpy,
I took no offense the way you put your question, I feel the Sig and HK line have given me a more reliable design and I'm more than willing to master the DA trigger to reap this benefit. Yes it was more work and took more pratice to gain this confidence but I feel it was worth it.

I'm glad you didn't because I wasn't intending to impune your abilities or your choice. This is a discussion board, thus we DISCUSS things. On other forums you have 10 pages threads of people posting a one sentence opinion (or better yet a bunch of friggin +1's) with no explaination as to what or why the person has that opinion. You explained your position quite clearly. If you feel most comfortable with the DA/SA style gun and shoot it well, then brother I support your choice.

I myself started out with single actions and then went with Sigs for a very long time. My P226 still sits in my safe after all these years because I can't bring myself to part with it yet for sentimental reasons. That said, over the years, competition, training and my employers took me back to the single action/striker fired platform. I no longer shoot or carry DA/SA pistols, not because I couldn't master the trigger system, but because decocking was no longer part of my training regiment and as such, I chose to keep it simple on myself. I can shoot a DA/SA just fine. Single action/striker fired pistols however have a slightly faster first round capability for me (yes, I own a timer). That combined with the fact that SA guns usually have a lower bore-axis results in faster recovery between shots for ME.

We're I to be handed a DA/SA pistol and told "this is what you will use," I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

[ToddG]

Single action/striker fired pistols however have a slightly faster first round capability for me (yes, I own a timer).

Proper press-outs definitely require a bit more training to master with a TDA than a SAO or SFA. Having said that, I'm sure if you wanted to you could devote the time to your SIG and get back into the habit with minimal effort. (in your case, that effort would seem wasted, and I'm not suggesting you should try)

That combined with the fact that SA guns usually have a lower bore-axis results in faster recovery between shots for ME.

DING DING DING! So few people understand that there are multiple factors (mechanical & physiological) which affect their shooting speed. And those factors influence different people differently depending on skill, build, hand size, etc. All guns are square pegs, and all people are round holes. Some are just bigger holes than others.

[Lumpy196]

Oops...meant SA's usually have a lower bore-axis. Corrected.