Ron Avery on Gunfight Training: Hype, Myth, and BS

[C4IGrant]

I have no idea who Ron Avery is (so had to read his bio). It would appear that he was a deputy in CO and is a big fan of competition shooting. Is this his claim to fame (don't know if I am missing something or not here)??

Reading through his statements, I am not really sure what "hype" means. Does that mean that the statements he listed are FALSE? TRUE? Or just over used??? Don't know.

I would agree with F2S. If you never practice, you aren't going to MAGICALLY get better in a gun fight. I also think that if you SUCK on the square range, you will SUCK (X2) in the real world.

The thing that bothers me about competition shooters is they never see the negative side (like all the bad habits that people get from it in order to win at the "game"). Of COURSE, there are people the can and do realize the differences between a game and the real world. There are others though that cannot (see it all the time in tactical based training classes, LE incidents, etc).

I don't know if people realize this or not, but you can compete (which is a good thing) without the silly BS. We do it all the time in "tactical" classes. In fact, most all of the well known firearms instructors incorporate many timed drills, tests, team "games", etc in order to push the students. All without creating any bad habits.

From what I know, many of the Tier 1 firearms instructors that I talk to or know a lot about do not compete in any (or rarely) gun games. is that a clue? Don't know, but is something to consider.


Before I get a bunch of butt hurt comments from gun game guru's, I think EVERYONE can learn something from competition shooters. In fact, I would love to get some training from Rob Leatham.



C4

[comprido]

I have no idea who Ron Avery is (so had to read his bio). It would appear that he was a deputy in CO and is a big fan of competition shooting. Is this his claim to fame (don't know if I am missing something or not here)??

You are missing something huge. I'd say his claim to fame isn't that he was a deputy or a competition shooter but rather that he's an accomplished instructor that's been teaching full-time for years with a very impressive list of past clients. Avery's bio

Also, to say he's a big fan of competition shooting may be an understatement. He was a USPSA (then IPSC) national champion. He took some time off from competing (and worked through some injuries), but recently started shooting matches again.

The thing that bothers me about competition shooters is they never see the negative side (like all the bad habits that people get from it in order to win at the "game"). Of COURSE, there are people the can and do realize the differences between a game and the real world. There are others though that cannot (see it all the time in tactical based training classes, LE incidents, etc).

Never see the negative side? That's a gross exaggeration. I think most competition shooters that are LE/MIL or just interested in self-defense will readily tell you the negatives of competition shooting. We simply think the pros outweigh the cons.

LE Incidents? What LE incident are you referring to that competition shooting played a negative part in the outcome?

I've heard from many LEOs that credit competition shooting to helping them in shootings or near shootings, but don't know of any that have said competition shooting hurt them.

From what I know, many of the Tier 1 firearms instructors that I talk to or know a lot about do not compete in any (or rarely) gun games. is that a clue? Don't know, but is something to consider.

And some do or did actively compete. (I could insert the Pat MacNamara link here.)

[C4IGrant]

You are missing something huge. I'd say his claim to fame isn't that he was a deputy or a competition shooter but rather that he's an accomplished instructor that's been teaching full-time for years with a very impressive list of past clients. Avery's bio

Also, to say he's a big fan of competition shooting may be an understatement. He was a USPSA (then IPSC) national champion. He took some time off from competing (and worked through some injuries), but recently started shooting matches again.

Hmm, don't think I missed anything. I guess if I was into competition shooting, I would be super impressed, but to me there are instructors with backgrounds that I am way more impressed with (from a tactics/tactical background).

You could very be right about his ability to instruct though (don't know and don't have any friends that have trained with him so I have nothing to base it off of).

Never see the negative side? That's a gross exaggeration. I think most competition shooters that are LE/MIL or just interested in self-defense will readily tell you the negatives of competition shooting. We simply think the pros outweigh the cons.

LE Incidents? What LE incident are you referring to that competition shooting played a negative part in the outcome?

Many do not see the negative side. Maybe they aren't smart enough to realize it? I know many Civy's that do not realize it.

The first one that comes to mind is the officer that dumped mag (while in a gun fight) after only firing less than half the magazine (as she would in a match).

On the tactical training side, I see competition shooters fail to use cover, have zero understanding of tactics in many different ways as they are always thinking about how to shoot a target as fast as possible and instead of doing it in the safest or most defensive way possible.

I've heard from many LEOs that credit competition shooting to helping them in shootings or near shootings, but don't know of any that have said competition shooting hurt them.

Actually what they are benefitting from is the fact that they had a goal and set out to achieve it. This forced them to log many hours and thousands of rounds on the range. They probably also sought out better training than what they previously had (all good things).

IMHO, it is ok if someone isn't into competition shooting as they can still have goals and can grow as a shooter (without possibly creating bad habits). If you haven't seen or don't know, there are some shooters out there that have never shot in a competition match that will absolutely burn you down (all without shooting down loaded ammo or using a race gun).


Of course there are instructors that do shoot from time to time in some regional gun games, but most of them have hit the "delete" button on gun games for many reasons and don't seem to suffer from it.

If you are into it and can separate the good from the bad, then great!




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[6933]

Hmm, don't think I missed anything. I guess if I was into competition shooting, I would be super impressed, but to me there are instructors with backgrounds that I am way more impressed with (from a tactics/tactical background)
C4

Exactly. I can think of multiple instructors that have a better resume of whom they have worked with.

[comprido]

Exactly. I can think of multiple instructors that have a better resume of whom they have worked with.

Fair enough. So be it. I'm sure you can find instructors with more impressive resumes. But that doesn't mean his isn't impressive, or you shouldn't pay attention to what he writes.

(I don't get some of language in the article either - myth vs hype- and don't agree with everything he wrote. But I'm smart enough not to dismiss it out of hand just because he's not from JSOC.)

[comprido]

Hmm, don't think I missed anything. I guess if I was into competition shooting, I would be super impressed, but to me there are instructors with backgrounds that I am way more impressed with (from a tactics/tactical background).

Since you didn't even mention he's an instructor, I'd say you missed something, at least in your post. Maybe you noticed it but didn't think it was worth mentioning. But by not including that he's an instructor (much like yourself), you didn't give the readers the full picture of who Ron Avery is. He's not just a deputy that likes to compete. He's a full-time instructor that teaches law enforcement, military and civilians.

The first one that comes to mind is the officer that dumped mag (while in a gun fight) after only firing less than half the magazine (as she would in a match).

C4

Can you give us the full story or link, please?

[C4IGrant]

Since you didn't even mention he's an instructor, I'd say you missed something, at least in your post. Maybe you noticed it but didn't think it was worth mentioning. But by not including that he's an instructor (much like yourself), you didn't give the readers the full picture of who Ron Avery is. He's not just a deputy that likes to compete. He's a full-time instructor that teaches law enforcement, military and civilians.

No, I realize that he is a full time instructor and took that into account. Not to take away from him being a instructor (as he could be a fantastic one), but there are just too many people that anointment themselves as an "instructor" and so I kind of look at them as a skeptic until shown otherwise.

To be honest, I really do not consider myself a firearms trainer. I am more like a mentor that is helping people to grow to the point where they can take a class from a professional instructor.

YMMV.

Can you give us the full story or link, please?

This incident was several years ago and I never saved it (sorry).



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[nickdrak]

Of course there are instructors that do shoot from time to time in some regional gun games, but most of them have hit the "delete" button on gun games for many reasons and don't seem to suffer from it.

If you are into it and can separate the good from the bad, then great!




C4

Grant,

I think the point is that many of the tier 1 trainers such as Kyle Defoor, JD Potynsky, Larry Vickers, Pat McNamara etc..... have all used the "gun games" to their advantage and see it as a tool that has helped bring their skills to the level where they currently shoot at.

Of course, if you are teaching classes every week and shooting drills in-front of your students you don't have much need, or the time available to shoot IDPA, USPSA, etc anymore.

[mick610]

"Of course, if you are teaching classes every week and shooting drills in-front of your students you don't have much need, or the time available to shoot IDPA, USPSA, etc anymore."

That may depend upon your lifestyle.

I teach two classes a week every week and hit the range for practice on Fridays and at least one match during the weekend unless the Sheriff has something for me to do.


The serial number on my next custom SV will read "#1 Mistress"...

[C4IGrant]

Grant,

I think the point is that many of the tier 1 trainers such as Kyle Defoor, JD Potynsky, Larry Vickers, Pat McNamara etc..... have all used the "gun games" to their advantage and see it as a tool that has helped bring their skills to the level where they currently shoot at.

Tier 1 units bring in all the best Competition shooters in an effort to "gleam" a nugget or two from them in an effort to be more proficient (not how to game a stage, dump a half full mag, shoot a gun with a 1.5lbs trigger or down load your ammo). In this context, yes competition shooters have helped them become better (not necessarily a gun game IMHO).

With that said, they also logged many more hours and thousands of rounds in a shoot house, etc to refine that skill and that is the point I make to Civy's as well as LE. Do you have a mastery of the elements that you will most likely find yourself in when things go south?? If not, you should probably work on getting up to speed on those things before worrying about your split times.

Of course, if you are teaching classes every week and shooting drills in-front of your students you don't have much need, or the time available to shoot IDPA, USPSA, etc anymore.

I don't know if this is directed at me or not, but I don't teach classes every week. I do however demo drills for students.


C4