Ron Avery on Gunfight Training: Hype, Myth, and BS

[C4IGrant]

Since you didn't even mention he's an instructor, I'd say you missed something, at least in your post. Maybe you noticed it but didn't think it was worth mentioning. But by not including that he's an instructor (much like yourself), you didn't give the readers the full picture of who Ron Avery is. He's not just a deputy that likes to compete. He's a full-time instructor that teaches law enforcement, military and civilians.

No, I realize that he is a full time instructor and took that into account. Not to take away from him being a instructor (as he could be a fantastic one), but there are just too many people that anointment themselves as an "instructor" and so I kind of look at them as a skeptic until shown otherwise.

To be honest, I really do not consider myself a firearms trainer. I am more like a mentor that is helping people to grow to the point where they can take a class from a professional instructor.

YMMV.

Can you give us the full story or link, please?

This incident was several years ago and I never saved it (sorry).



C4

[C4IGrant]

Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn were two of the original founders of IDPA and competed.

Yep and no longer compete in it and or think much of it. Clue.


C4

[C4IGrant]

Agree with some of it, there is a lot more to this discussion to be had. I do compete at a local IDPA club, however, the Match Director keeps all of the LEO together in our own squad and has a separate course of fire for us. We go with our own departmental training and don't get scored by IDPA rules so hey, it works for me...

I like that.


C4

[orionz06]

Gun games look an awful lot like shooting to me. You can only get out of them what you put into them. I imagine if you are going to dedicate your life to them and adopt every advantage possible your "defensive skills" might suffer. If that is you or someone you know maybe they need to skip them. It also strikes me as odd that some of the people who complain about gun games teaching bad habits in fact teach their own worse habits. To each his own.

As far as calling someone an "instructor" goes I rank that up there with all of the other self anointed titles, BFD. You earn respect, not print it on a business card at 500 for $9.99.

I am not sure anyone will discount the ability to shoot really fast while hitting what you are aiming at.

[Arctic1]

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/08/18...ment-mcnamara/

“Though there is no instant solution to shooting well, I truly believe that the illusive shortcut is in competition. How does one compartmentalize the pressures of a gunfight? Well, you won’t learn to do it during the gunfight. Competition forces pressure on the shooter and it is mostly self-induced. We experience anxiety because of self defeating beliefs. The more one trains under pressure, the more he learns to compartmentalize those pressures.

There are many who believe that competing in the likes of an IPSC match has no tactical relevancy, and it is all just a game.

OK, it’s a game where you are shooting your gun at targets, under time, and with people watching you. You must handle your weapon properly, and follow all rules or be DQed (disqualified). You must discriminate between “shoot” and “no-shoot” targets. You have got to move and make use of cover. You will have to fire from awkward positions. You must find a solution to an ambiguous situation within your skill level.”

Patrick McNamara
SGM, US Army (Ret)

A different perspective on competitions.

ETA:

I have also been heavily involved in competition shooting with pistols, rifles, carbines, and shotguns. This competition experience has helped to make me a better rounded tactical shooter. Competition is a great place to experience shooting stresses that you might otherwise not experience until the day you become engaged. I, for one, want to feel the stress in competition, know what it is to deal with it, and learn from it. Being overcome by events in a tactical crisis is not the time to feel your first dump of adrenaline. So get out there and place yourself in an unfamiliar, stressful environment. It will pay off.

Kyle Lamb, SGM (Ret.), in Green Eyes, Black Rifles

I would really like to start competing, but unfortunately for me, the options where I am currently stationed are severely limited. Hopefully my day job will take care of the tactics bit.

[C4IGrant]

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/08/18...ment-mcnamara/



A different perspective on competitions.

ETA:



Kyle Lamb, SGM (Ret.), in Green Eyes, Black Rifles

I would really like to start competing, but unfortunately for me, the options where I am currently stationed are severely limited. Hopefully my day job will take care of the tactics bit.

Agree with all the above. Using competition, a timer, people watching, etc are all good things. Every TACTICAL training class I have ever attended had all of these things (without any of the negatives).


C4

[mick610]

When you read someone's bio and it say they have many years of Police experience. Or about so many years, what does that mean?
I know and say exactly:
28 years, 3 months as a Police Officer.
3 years, 9 months as a part time Deputy Sheriff
2 years, 4 months as a contract DT/firearms
Instructor for the Feds
17 years, 3 months as a USPSA shooter
12 years having earned a GM in LTD....

If you have something to say that gives you creds then say it.
If it doesn't, don't make it sound like it does.....
Why hide it if it IS important?????



just sayin.....

[SHIVAN]

I think shooting competition gives you another avenue to shoot.

Shooting more, under pressure, usually means shooting better under pressure at a later date.

The things I need to learn can come from both a competition shooter, like Rob Leathem, and a tactical shooter like Larry Vickers. It's no mystery why Larry brought Rob in to teach while he was in Delta.

Both types of training are useful, and you can see the mutual admiration that Rob Leathem and Larry Vickers have of one another. That speaks volumes to me about the value of both types of shooting.

[comprido]

When you read someone's bio and it say they have many years of Police experience. Or about so many years, what does that mean?
I know and say exactly:
28 years, 3 months as a Police Officer.
3 years, 9 months as a part time Deputy Sheriff
2 years, 4 months as a contract DT/firearms
Instructor for the Feds
17 years, 3 months as a USPSA shooter
12 years having earned a GM in LTD....

If you have something to say that gives you creds then say it.
If it doesn't, don't make it sound like it does.....
Why hide it if it IS important?????



just sayin.....

I'm not tracking, Mick. Who are you referring to?

[mick610]

I was reluctant to say this and maybe shouldn't have but when you read the bios of some of these guys they say things like "many years" or "about so many years". That makes me question their statement. I had no intention of hijacking the thread. As an instructor myself, I put in a resume' to contract for the Feds and listed exactly what my qualifications are. I wanted them to know exactly who I am. Would I want to take a class with someone who
appeared to give a bio and only aproximates their qualifications? No.
Now I have to guess who or what they are.
As I mentioned I contract as a DT/Firearms Instructor after 28 years of full time and 3 years of part time LE work. I work with some "Paper Tigers". The paper says allot but the skill isn't there.
I'm trying not to point fingers at any instructors. I just see something that doesn't appear right....
Once you pay your money and get to the class it might be too late.
Were you enticed by the bio????