Ron Avery on Gunfight Training: Hype, Myth, and BS

[kelly neal]

Agree and is why Mr. Leathem is on my list. Any person that LAV speaks highly of is someone that I need to look into.

Since you and I have logged many hours together on the range, maybe you will understand where I am going with what I am about to say.
I view the purpose of firearms for one thing only. That is self-preservation and the safety of loved ones. Much like how a blacksmith views his hammer, it is a tool to be used to flatten steel. He does not beat steel against the anvil for fun, but for necessity.
So what free time I have available, I want to concentrate on being fundamentally sound with ALL the firearms available to me (pistol, revolver, AR, SG, AK, MP5, etc). I also want to focus on the areas of training where I will most likely have to deal with a threat (home, car, public). So that means logging hours in a shoot house clearing rooms, operating inside and outside of a vehicle, CCW encounters, etc.. These things are all way more important to me than my split times or learning how best to "game" a stage at a shooting event.




C4

Plus Rob does a pretty good LAV impersonation.

The one thing that competition shooters tend to have over "tactical class" shooters is sheer volume. Most competitors are constantly competing at the local, regional, or national level or are prepping to do so. The gunhandling (including malfunction clearance), accuracy and efficiency of regular competitors tends to be a much higher level than most who take 1, 2, 3 or even 4 classes a year from even the best of instructors simply because they do it MUCH more often. Of course, straight up competitors know next to nothing about room clearance, tactics, operating in teams, emergency medicine, coms, and unarmed combat.

I don't think anybody would say that regular competition is a substitute for real training or that being a GM makes one a "gunfighter." But regular competition will give you an appreciation of time, improve your gunhandling, and make you more accurate.

[azidpa]

Grant:

I am not a gamer, but here is how I look at it, using your analogy to assist...

A blacksmith may use tried and true methods while doing his work, that pays his bills, where the work must be done correctly and made strong. The blacksmith will always experiment, on his down time while not on paying work, or in his recreation time, to establish new techniques to get a bend, a temper, a faster heat, a better product.

He does this to deliver his superior goods to his customers at a later date.

Sure, it's imperfect, but for those who would otherwise need to pay for and arrange something special, like a shoothouse, the games offer a good way to get trigger time and shooting on the move time in their practice. Even at the expense of some "bad tactics". Time shooting is better than time not shooting - especially if under simulated stress.

I must say again though, I am not a gamer, and if I were I would try to shoot to win. Even when timers are involved in "tactical classes" I've grown to where I can hold my own in "games". Can I beat Rob Leathem in an El Pres? Or a shooting star? No I can't, but there are probably only a handful of people I know who can, and they shoot for a living.

reference the sentence in red;
I see this comment over and over again in regards to justifying shooting competitions.
I'll be the devils advocate and say at any given shooting match, you will spend more time not shooting vs actual live fire .

Club matches will have anywhere from 4-6 stages depending on facilities. If the average stage was 30 seconds, you will have a grand total of 2-3 minutes of actual shooting time over the course of 3+ hours during the entire match.

If the goal is to shoot stages quickly, you will have even less time.

Is that 2-3 match-minutes actually beneficial to the shooter?

[turducken]

I get the argument you're making, but the way I see it is that many people use these relatively brief matches as an end goal. Most people will train quite a bit for these matches before entering one, and in that case they may be spending more time on the range in general, even if the match itself is short.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

[skatz11]

I had an interesting experience this spring. I did a one day shoot house class (awesome day with Grant and LAV btw) on saturday and shot a multigun match the following day.

Without a doubt I enjoyed the training day much more. Huge difference in actual trigger time.

However, matched are easier to find and less expensive than classes. I think a dedicated shooter should try to balance these two aspects because there is no doubt to me that they are mutually beneficial to each other.

Here's my summary:

Classes - lean new skills and ideas while getting professional feedback

Training days - focus on individual skills and personal improvement.

Matches - chance to test your skills under simulated stress and have fun.

[orionz06]

The one thing that competition shooters tend to have over "tactical class" shooters is sheer volume.

Not to mention there are just guys who show up at classes to be at classes and don't shoot in between classes.

[C4IGrant]

Plus Rob does a pretty good LAV impersonation.

The one thing that competition shooters tend to have over "tactical class" shooters is sheer volume. Most competitors are constantly competing at the local, regional, or national level or are prepping to do so. The gunhandling (including malfunction clearance), accuracy and efficiency of regular competitors tends to be a much higher level than most who take 1, 2, 3 or even 4 classes a year from even the best of instructors simply because they do it MUCH more often. Of course, straight up competitors know next to nothing about room clearance, tactics, operating in teams, emergency medicine, coms, and unarmed combat.

I don't think anybody would say that regular competition is a substitute for real training or that being a GM makes one a "gunfighter." But regular competition will give you an appreciation of time, improve your gunhandling, and make you more accurate.

Really? I need to see that!

I think we need to differentiate between training and practicing. When a guy takes a training class, he then has to PRACTICE what he learns. If he never does that, then well you get what you get.

You point is that competition shooters shoot more because they are always working towards a goal (winning their division, advancing, etc). I understand that and also view having goals as a good thing. There is also no reason why a guy that isn't into gun games can't have shooting goals as well (and that's my point).

To me, there is a fundamental difference between myself and most of the gun gamers I meet. They view firearms as a toy that they use to enjoy a game. I view firearms as a defensive tool that I will use to protect myself and my loved ones. So my time is spent on everything from accuracy to low light to defensive room clearing.

We are all on the same page, but I put different priorities on my time (because of how differently I view firearms). If a tier 1 guy (that has all the fundamentals down, advanced skills, etc) wants to compete in gun games as a way to get more practice, I think that is awesome. For most everyone else though (especially LE), you need to be practicing a lot of OTHER things in order to give yourself the best possible outcome in a fight.

Prioritize what skill sets are most important to you coming home.


C4

[C4IGrant]

reference the sentence in red;
I see this comment over and over again in regards to justifying shooting competitions.
I'll be the devils advocate and say at any given shooting match, you will spend more time not shooting vs actual live fire .

Club matches will have anywhere from 4-6 stages depending on facilities. If the average stage was 30 seconds, you will have a grand total of 2-3 minutes of actual shooting time over the course of 3+ hours during the entire match.

If the goal is to shoot stages quickly, you will have even less time.

Is that 2-3 match-minutes actually beneficial to the shooter?

Excellent point. I will go one step further and say that shooting while under instruction (someone watching and evaluating what you are doing) for just one hour is going to be more beneficial than most anything else you can do.


C4

[orionz06]

Excellent point. I will go one step further and say that shooting while under instruction (someone watching and evaluating what you are doing) for just one hour is going to be more beneficial than most anything else you can do.


C4

And not even firing a full magazine...

[C4IGrant]

And not even firing a full magazine...

True. Round count is irrelevant to quality time with a gun. We can do an hours worth of Ball and Dummy drills and never shoot 10 rounds.


C4

[rudy99]

While other far more experienced people have posted to this thread, I feel compelled to give my $0.02.

Trigger time w/Competition
There is training, practice and competition. I view competition to be a demonstration of one's ability, not to be confused with practice. As such, just because you don't necessarily get a lot of trigger time, I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater and discount competitive shooting events. As a civilian, that is really the only opportunity to demonstrate what I've learned in training and what I've practice in my own time in a stressful shooting situation. For me, this has not really occurred with training, in that training for me has mostly included individual drills that focus on fundamentals where at most you shoot 3-5 shots. Competition stages generally involve pulling together all of the fundamentals.

Gaming vs Tactics
Unfortunately, I have not really had the opportunity to learn proper tactics via professional instruction. Although I have taken classes from Scott Warren and Paul Howe, these have mostly been shooting classes and only a very minute portion of these classes addressed tactics. I suspect I might have to take an advanced pistol and/or rifle class to get more training on tactics and I don't feel like I'm quite ready for an "advanced" class. With that said, practicing appropriate tactics and using those in competitive shooting is out of the question for me. Additionally, if I poo-poo'd competitive shooting because it wasn't "tactical" enough, then I'd only be shooting by myself in a bubble with no real stress, even with a timer (I call that practice). Layer in the fact that all ranges within 1 hour of me are engineered for Bubba and his XD (i.e. 1 shot per second, no SHO/WHO shooting, no shooting from a holster), and competitive shooting is effectively the only outlet for action pistol shooting. SIDE NOTE: I used to practice at a range that allowed more freedom, however given the travel time (~1 hour each way) and other life commitments, I had to let my membership there expire. I only mention this to prevent the reader from assuming I've never been able to practice in a free environment, given local range restrictions.

Instructors and Competition
I suspect a lot of tier 1 instructors don't do competitive shooting because they've either "been there, done that" from a competitive shooting perspective (e.g. LAV, I think) or they've "been there, done that" from a real world perspective and don't need to further pad their resume with competitive shooting achievements.

At the end of the day, I just don't know how else a civilian is supposed to get the experience they get via USPSA/IDPA in another setting (training or practice). As such, TO ME, avoiding these type of events because they don't use appropriate tactics or you don't get enough trigger time doesn't make sense. Until someone creates another sport where appropriate tactics are forced via the rules, I guess we are all stuck with USPSA/IDPA.