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Thread: Diagnosing Students

  1. #1
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    Diagnosing Students

    All, so by no means am I an "instructor" but as the most interested/savvy at my unit I have essentially become my units firearms teacher.

    Two issues I ran into a lot today out on the range that I wasn't quite sure how to help with were,

    While doing M9 drills, I had a guy who was shooting decent groups but straight down from his point of aim. I told him I figured he was probably flinching or locking his elbows. I know flinching/anticipating is usually low left/right depending on handedness but I don't know about straight down. Another guy was doing the same thing but straight up from the point of aim, that one I didn't even have a good guess for.

    Another common issue, even with myself sometimes, is when zeroing the M4 with 3 shot groups and you get 2 shots really close, maybe even touching, and a third off on its own. Usually complicated by bracketing the point of aim. I will always ask the guy if he knows which shot the off one was, as sometimes you know right away you screwed that up, if they do I tell them to adjust off the group of 2. If they have no idea, if it's kinda close Ill have them adjust off "center mass" and try again, go over the fundamentals and such, and see what happens. If they keep doing it Ill have them shoot another group without adjusting and see if something "usable" appears, use that and move on.

    Also today, I saw a guy who would be, say, 3" high and right. Adjust properly (I watched him do it and count the "clicks") and be 3" low and left. This happened twice where he ended up going "twice as far" so I had him shoot again without adjusting, found a usable group of shots to adjust from and moved on.

    Just looking for some help dealing with these kinds of things so I can teach my guys better.

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    Could be "jerking" of the trigger with the pistol low shots, I see this with our P229s alot as they are double action only and the trigger starts to feel like it's "hanging up" just before releasing the hammer. The shooter will jerk through the resistance causing the muzzle to dip, rather than pull through it with consistency.
    For the straight up shots, either "heeling" (a form of anticipation) or "riding the recoil"
    Of course don't rule out sight picture/sight alignment.....I like the term "equal light, equal height" ....pretty self explanatory.
    Last edited by mattw82; 08-29-12 at 22:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J8127 View Post

    While doing M9 drills, I had a guy who was shooting decent groups but straight down from his point of aim. I told him I figured he was probably flinching or locking his elbows. I know flinching/anticipating is usually low left/right depending on handedness but I don't know about straight down. Another guy was doing the same thing but straight up from the point of aim, that one I didn't even have a good guess for.
    A couple of questions. How far was the range he was shooting? How far was the point of impact from the point of aim? how big of a group was he shooting?

    Matt

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    Straight down to me indicates shifting his focus to the target and looking over the sights just prior to breaking the shot.

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    This chart is helpful in regards to diagnosing pistol shooters, but you should identify the error by looking at the student as well:



    Shooting good groups, but grouping low, is usually the case where a shooter is looking at the target, and not the sights, or if he is pulling the weapon down, by breaking the wrist.

    If he identifies that he is indeed looking at the target, and not his sights, have him focus on sight alignment for a few strings until he gets it right. If you suspect that he is pulling the weapon down, ie breaking the wrist, there is a test you can do that I have had success with.

    Have the shooter hand you his weapon, make sure he has cleared it, and then tell him to face the target. You state that you will load the gun, and then hand it to him. Instead of chambering a round, you just rack the gun with no magazine in it, then insert the magazine. You have handed him a weapon that will go "click" when he presses the trigger. If he is anticipating the recoil and trying to counter it by pulling the weapon down, you will see it instantly.

    When grouping high it indicates that he is breaking his wrist up, ie pullng the pistol up. Look at the shooter, and try to see if it is taking place. You also need to make sure that he is not covering the target with the front sight post, but bisecting it.

    For your zeroing issues, the issues stem from one of two things:

    1. Change in position during the course of fire
    2. Lack of concentration

    Even a minor change in position, for example stock placement, cheek weld etc, can cause a shift in POI. Make sure that the shooters are in a good, comfortable position before shooting, so they don't have to change their body during the zeroing string.

    Lack of concentration is just that, they lose focus either by being tired from having an uncomfortable position, from taking too long to aim, or that they just want to get the last shot off. To counter this, you need to stress the importance of a good, comfortable shooting position, conduct the zero process without time constraints telling them to take their time, and have them take breaks or start their aiming process over if they feel their eyes getting strained.

    A couple of pointers. I would reccomend you shoot at least 4 rounds per string when zeroing. I don't know how you guys do it, but we work out the mean point of impact based off the group, and adjust that MPOI towards the center of the bullseye. In order to accomplish this, you need your shooters to group consistently, as well as shooting enough rounds to produce valid data. 3 rounds is just to few, IMO. Depending on ammo constraints, my view is that people focus too much on hitting the bullseye, rather than focusing on actual groups. Unless the group is off paper, or just about, I suggest not adjusting POI until the shooter has fired 5-6 consistent groups. That way you are not adjusting a shooter who is just shooting poorly, in which case the adjustments could be off du to him making mistakes.

    Last, never tell people to shift their point of aim. They must always aim at the same spot for every string. If not, you will be stuck chasing shooter error instead of actually fixing the problem.
    Last edited by Arctic1; 08-30-12 at 09:40.
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scimitar2 View Post
    Straight down to me indicates shifting his focus to the target and looking over the sights just prior to breaking the shot.
    Yep, this is the most likely. Stop looking at his target, now, what's happening on that end has already been established. Instead, do as Arctic states; set yourself somewhere ahead of his right shoulder (presuming a righty...and TELL him you're gonna do it, first) and watch what he's doing while he's shooting. You're looking at about a basketball-diameter area. I'd be willing to bet that on those shots that dive, you'll see eyes swiveling focus from the target to the front sight and back again. If the shooter needs to squint or close the off eye to maintain front sight focus, let 'em do it; some folks literally can't shoot with both eyes open, just like there's folks that literally don't have a dominant eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    I don't know how you guys do it, but we work out the mean point of impact based off the group, .
    Americans are pretty bloody lazy, and most of us are usually only fed enough material by public schools to satisfy poorly-executed standardized testing (instead of educated). We tend to vapor-lock on extreme spread. Mean-radius involves math and thinking, and doesn't provide for instant gratification, which makes the practice as publcly appealing as incestuous necro-bestiality (i.e., f**king the dead family dog). In this case, both use of extreme-spread and limiting zeroing groups to three rounds is part the US military's lockstep way of doing things...dude unlikely to be able to break from either due to time restrictions regarding group measurements, and doctrine/round-count Nazis regarding number of rounds per group.

    If you've got folks that end up chasing the bull despite making what should be appropriate adjustments, Arctic's on the right track on all points.

    We ARE talking irons, right....?
    Contractor scum, AAV

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    Quote Originally Posted by J8127 View Post
    While doing M9 drills, I had a guy who was shooting decent groups but straight down from his point of aim. I told him I figured he was probably flinching or locking his elbows. I know flinching/anticipating is usually low left/right depending on handedness but I don't know about straight down. Another guy was doing the same thing but straight up from the point of aim, that one I didn't even have a good guess for.


    Very common problem (see it all the time). IMHO, this is one of the hardest problems to deal with (as there is no real fix AND there can be several reasons for it).

    When I see this, I usually have the student align the sights and I pull the trigger (if you do not know how to do this, PM me). By doing this, I at least know if the student is aligning his sights properly and if he is breaking his wrists (which is rarely the cause IMHO).

    Depending on how far down the shots are, the problem is either looking over the sights (which results in a minor 6 o'clock position) OR is driving the gun forward right before it goes bang (anticipating the recoil). This results in a much lower 6 o'clock position.


    Part of the cure is IDing the issue to the shooter. The rest is on them to practice proper sight alignment and trigger pull.


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 08-30-12 at 09:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    .Have the shooter hand you his weapon, make sure he has cleared it, and then tell him to face the target. You state that you will load the gun, and then hand it to him. Instead of chambering a round, you just rack the gun with no magazine in it, then insert the magazine. You have handed him a weapon that will go "click" when he presses the trigger. If he is anticipating the recoil and trying to counter it by pulling the weapon down, you will see it instantly.
    Good advice here, most shooters I've worked with learn real quick what to fix all on their own when doing this. Depending on what your unit/department policies are, you could load the magazine for the shooter, mixing dummy ammunition in with the live rounds. Ensure the shooter is watching that front sight. You and the shooter will see where that front sight goes when they "fire" that dummy round. If you are unauthorized to mix dummy rounds with love rounds, the quoted advice above has the same effect.

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    Surprizingly, I've had good luck just saying drop the magazine, give me TWO shots. Watch as they nearly fall over from anticipation.
    Some guys catch this but then I mention they didn't anticipate because they knew the gun was empty and I get them either way...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mick610 View Post
    Surprizingly, I've had good luck just saying drop the magazine, give me TWO shots. Watch as they nearly fall over from anticipation.
    Some guys catch this but then I mention they didn't anticipate because they knew the gun was empty and I get them either way..
    Or they catch it but still flinch anyway! :banghead:

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