Diagnosing Students

[Redhat]

Surprizingly, I've had good luck just saying drop the magazine, give me TWO shots. Watch as they nearly fall over from anticipation.
Some guys catch this but then I mention they didn't anticipate because they knew the gun was empty and I get them either way...

Agree, but what are your methods for helping them to overcome the problem?

For rifle, I will also suggest to the OP that it may work better to stress/require consistent grouping first then move on to zero.

[mick610]

Agree, but what are your methods for helping them to overcome the problem?

For rifle, I will also suggest to the OP that it may work better to stress/require consistent grouping first then move on to zero.

Once they see where that front sight goes as in using dummy rounds they usually catch on. It's mostly mental. A few dry fires with NO movement and they remember what we taught them in the classroom. We hesitate in stopping the line for more than a minute or so to remind them about the fundamentals. I get about an hour of dry fire and weapon manipulation with inert training guns in the classroom an hour before we leave for the range. We really harp at them for their trigger pull and manipulation. An hour isn't enough but it's all I get. Our curriculum is pretty strict. Depending on the class size, we have to cover allot of ground pretty quick...

[Arctic1]

Surprizingly, I've had good luck just saying drop the magazine, give me TWO shots. Watch as they nearly fall over from anticipation.
Some guys catch this but then I mention they didn't anticipate because they knew the gun was empty and I get them either way...

I get the "end", but cannot honestly understand the "means". Having them drop the magazine as part of the shooting string doesn't seem to contribute to the overall training.

With my method, they either start from the holster or position 3 (high compressed ready), and they proceed with the drill.

And maybe I misunderstood the final part, but it's not about "getting them", it's about confirming a shooter error for the instructor, as well as making the shooter aware of it him/herself.

[Arctic1]

Good advice here, most shooters I've worked with learn real quick what to fix all on their own when doing this. Depending on what your unit/department policies are, you could load the magazine for the shooter, mixing dummy ammunition in with the live rounds. Ensure the shooter is watching that front sight. You and the shooter will see where that front sight goes when they "fire" that dummy round. If you are unauthorized to mix dummy rounds with love rounds, the quoted advice above has the same effect.

Call me retarded......

I googled "ball and dummy" for the first time tonight. I had heard about the drill, but not checked it out.

It's pretty much what you are describing here, and is a very good option if mixing dummy rounds is authorized.

[Redhat]

Ball and dummy is great and probably underutilized in the training world, but at some point the student has to make friends with the impending "Boom" and recoil.

[mattw82]

Ball and dummy is great and probably underutilized in the training world, but at some point the student has to make friends with the impending "Boom" and recoil.

I agree 100 % with this. I personally know the challenges of overcoming the natural instinct to react to the loud "boom" and recoil, which took me many many (hundreds, maybe 1,000) rounds to get used to. Although I now know what needs to happen to overcome the anticipation, and can give suggestions to my shooters that help most of them, there are few that simply can not get over the anticipation. Even with drills like ball and dummy, my "words of wisdom" and repetition, repetition and more repetition($$$$), I have yet to find a solid way to instruct these "trouble" students how to stop anticipating. What works for me, or this guy, or that gal, may not work for everyone else. I realize shooting maybe just isn't for everyone, but as a newer firearms instructor, I often ask myself where (and if) I am going wrong, or what can I say or do to help. Any of you have any other advice for those that simply can not stop anticipating other than what's been discussed in this thread so far?

[mick610]

I get the "end", but cannot honestly understand the "means". Having them drop the magazine as part of the shooting string doesn't seem to contribute to the overall training.

With my method, they either start from the holster or position 3 (high compressed ready), and they proceed with the drill.

And maybe I misunderstood the final part, but it's not about "getting them", it's about confirming a shooter error for the instructor, as well as making the shooter aware of it him/herself.

Having up to 24 shooters on the line gives little time to find and diagnose a problem. Taking their magazine means they will hit an empty chamber on the second pull of the trigger. If they aren't savy they will jerk or do whatever it is that is showing on the target. When they SEE the front sight dip or move they also SEE what is wrong and should recall the instruction that had previously during the dry fire class. If they know what is about to happen they will hold the gun still while pulling the trigger on the second shot and NOT jerk or whatever.
They know then that THEY caused the shots to break from the P.O.A.
If ask the guy why he didn't jerk when he had been, he will say he knew the gun was empty and didn't want to show a flinch etc.
There is half the battle won right there. He KNEW not to jerk.
SO KEEP DOING WHAT YOU JUST DID BUT WITH AMMO IN THE GUN!
I just "got them" to see what the problem is! It would be nice to slip a dummy round in the mag (ball & dummy) but that isnt always feasable...
I have no method I claim as mine. Nothing in shooting a handgun is really new in the last 40 years and we go full circle often when it comes to fundamentals. Sure we had what is considered high speed and tactically sound but it really isn't that different from Col Jeff's info from a long time ago...

I keep a log for all my shooting from about 1977 (I turned 21 in 1976) and all my different gun from competition etc....
If I told you what the total was you wouldn't believe me so I won't say. I bought a 1050 the first year they were sold (they wouldn't sell me an RL 1000). I know how many rounds have been loaded on it.
Point? It may have taken allot of shooting but I figured out a long time ago what it takes to shoot a revolver or auto pistol correctly!

[Arctic1]

@mick610:

Like I said, I understand WHY you make them drop the magazine - you want to provoke their bad habit of pulling the gun down in anticipation. My point was that I disagree with the method. Having them drop the magazine, and then firing the gun without the magazine has no further application or relevance to the rest of the training IMO.

How many AI's do you usually have with 24 shooters on the line? For me, quality takes precedence over quantity, so if there are few AI's I would divide the shooters into two groups of 12 (if I had 24 shooters). If possible, depending on level of proficiency, the shooters can also help diagnosing each other during the strings of fire using the buddy system.

The way I work, is that I use the results on the target to decide which student I want to observe. I start individual focus after maybe 2-3 strings. Some people may disagree, but personally I choose to focus on improving the poor shooters.

And when I said "my method", I meant the method I described in my post, not that it was MY method. I haven't invented jack. My point, maybe poorly conveyed, was that I try to use a method that flows with the drill, so they get one extra repetition of the draw, grip, presentation etc.

[mick610]

@mick610:

Like I said, I understand WHY you make them drop the magazine - you want to provoke their bad habit of pulling the gun down in anticipation. My point was that I disagree with the method. Having them drop the magazine, and then firing the gun without the magazine has no further application or relevance to the rest of the training IMO.

How many AI's do you usually have with 24 shooters on the line? For me, quality takes precedence over quantity, so if there are few AI's I would divide the shooters into two groups of 12 (if I had 24 shooters). If possible, depending on level of proficiency, the shooters can also help diagnosing each other during the strings of fire using the buddy system.

The way I work, is that I use the results on the target to decide which student I want to observe. I start individual focus after maybe 2-3 strings. Some people may disagree, but personally I choose to focus on improving the poor shooters.

And when I said "my method", I meant the method I described in my post, not that it was MY method. I haven't invented jack. My point, maybe poorly conveyed, was that I try to use a method that flows with the drill, so they get one extra repetition of the draw, grip, presentation etc.

If it was only that easy. I mentioned I contract now for a large Federal Agency (DHS). We have a strict schedule and there is no luxury of picking students you want to observe and hand feed.

"Having them drop the magazine, and then firing the gun without the magazine has no further application or relevance to the rest of the training IMO."

You may believe what you want but I have success with this. When a shooter sees his mistake he can understand it and try to correct. Or when he knows what is about to happens and corrects it for that dry fire, that works too. Your opinion doesn't count for us. If I can't get them right in the classroom, I only get so much to do on the line.
My PD had over 600 Officers and that gave us a little time. Now I have thousands....
In the last 3 years we've had 4000 students and fired over 760,000 rounds. There isn't allot of time no matter how many instructors are on the line and I won't be the one holding up that line for more than about 30 seconds at a time.
I did my training in 88. I shoot 4 times every week. I earned a GM card in LTD in 2000 and have had success in all my shooting. Yes, I know how to impart that to the students................IF I'm allowed........

[Arctic1]

If it was only that easy. I mentioned I contract now for a large Federal Agency (DHS). We have a strict schedule and there is no luxury of picking students you want to observe and hand feed.

"Having them drop the magazine, and then firing the gun without the magazine has no further application or relevance to the rest of the training IMO."

You may believe what you want but I have success with this. When a shooter sees his mistake he can understand it and try to correct. Or when he knows what is about to happens and corrects it for that dry fire, that works too. Your opinion doesn't count for us. If I can't get them right in the classroom, I only get so much to do on the line.
My PD had over 600 Officers and that gave us a little time. Now I have thousands....
In the last 3 years we've had 4000 students and fired over 760,000 rounds. There isn't allot of time no matter how many instructors are on the line and I won't be the one holding up that line for more than about 30 seconds at a time.
I did my training in 88. I shoot 4 times every week. I earned a GM card in LTD in 2000 and have had success in all my shooting. Yes, I know how to impart that to the students................IF I'm allowed........

You don't really appreciate people being of a different opinion, do you? No need to whip out resumés.

By all means, carry on with what you are doing. I was just making an observation in regards to the "magazine dropping" thing. Not intended as a slight against you, personally.