Diagnosing Students

[J8127]

We ARE talking irons, right....?

ACOGs.

Appreciate all the advice, hopefully I can help my guys better in the future.

[JSantoro]

Aha! My old bread-and-butter.... Two equipment-based possibilities that somewhat fit what's described:

1) Was the device given a solid thump with the heel of the hand, or similar, after each adjustment...? If not, the pin(s) that fall into the detents meant to hold the prism in place may not do so; can result in the next shot taken to shoot to the adjustments made, but the recoil impulse can send it whothehellknowswhere, so the following shots may group, but nowhere near where the adjustments were intended to place them.

Can result in MORE adjustments being put on, and if there's still no post-adjustment thump, it can exacerbate things pretty badly.

2) What can also happen is adjustment "loading," where an adjustment is induced on the clicker....but it doesn't move the prism, meaning the shot group won't move. Shooter responds by inducing further adjustment...perhaps more than once...until all of a sudden WHAM!!

...the device decides to finally move the prism, making ALL of the adjustments induced to the knob happen all at once, sometimes to the point that any groups may not even print on the same grid-square.

The first is a quite-common procedural error that usually results from improper training, the second less common, but the practice of thumping any ACOG a thump....on the windage knob, preferably WITH THE PROTECTIVE CAPS ON...is done to prevent that stuff from occurring.

The toolless adjusters on the USMC MDO/SDO and the Army's TA31RCO-M150, and similar, supposedly included some tweak to prevent such things from happening, versus the original tool-required ones.....they don't.

Feel like a schmuck for doing it, but I kicked a search for posts of mine regarding ACOG/RCO-related stuff in the Optics subforum; fortunately, there's a ton of good info from folks other than me, as well, so there's some depth to it. It may help with some ACOG tips/tricks on the next go-around, if in no better way than being more able to separate whether it's a shooter or an equipment problem, or some frustrating hybrid of both: https://www.m4carbine.net/search.php?searchid=4725242

[mick610]

You don't really appreciate people being of a different opinion, do you? No need to whip out resumés.

By all means, carry on with what you are doing. I was just making an observation in regards to the "magazine dropping" thing. Not intended as a slight against you, personally.

Ok, I'm good. I think you told me twice that what I was trying to do to induce a "ball and dummy" drill has no further application or relevance but it works with what I am allowed to do. If I can get them to see what the front sight does when they hammer fall on an empty chamber and move the gun I get a positive response. If they know enough that gun isn't going to fire on the second pull and don't move the gun then I point out that they know what the problem is and fixed it on their own....
I hadn't done this before at the PD and other training before DHS.
I had to find a way to let them SEE where the front sight was going when they are jerking the trigger, pushing the gun etc....

[Heavy Metal]

Aha! My old bread-and-butter.... Two equipment-based possibilities that somewhat fit what's described:

1) Was the device given a solid thump with the heel of the hand, or similar, after each adjustment...? If not, the pin(s) that fall into the detents meant to hold the prism in place may not do so; can result in the next shot taken to shoot to the adjustments made, but the recoil impulse can send it whothehellknowswhere, so the following shots may group, but nowhere near where the adjustments were intended to place them.

Can result in MORE adjustments being put on, and if there's still no post-adjustment thump, it can exacerbate things pretty badly.

2) What can also happen is adjustment "loading," where an adjustment is induced on the clicker....but it doesn't move the prism, meaning the shot group won't move. Shooter responds by inducing further adjustment...perhaps more than once...until all of a sudden WHAM!!

...the device decides to finally move the prism, making ALL of the adjustments induced to the knob happen all at once, sometimes to the point that any groups may not even print on the same grid-square.

The first is a quite-common procedural error that usually results from improper training, the second less common, but the practice of thumping any ACOG a thump....on the windage knob, preferably WITH THE PROTECTIVE CAPS ON...is done to prevent that stuff from occurring.

The toolless adjusters on the USMC MDO/SDO and the Army's TA31RCO-M150, and similar, supposedly included some tweak to prevent such things from happening, versus the original tool-required ones.....they don't.

Feel like a schmuck for doing it, but I kicked a search for posts of mine regarding ACOG/RCO-related stuff in the Optics subforum; fortunately, there's a ton of good info from folks other than me, as well, so there's some depth to it. It may help with some ACOG tips/tricks on the next go-around, if in no better way than being more able to separate whether it's a shooter or an equipment problem, or some frustrating hybrid of both: https://www.m4carbine.net/search.php?searchid=4725242

Jim, I have seen EoTechs do the sticky then all at once adjustment thing when cold. i am thinking a rubber mallet might make a worthy addition to my range kit.

[J8127]

I will have to add "thumping" to my process, lol

[Axcelea]

Putting pressure lower on the trigger and not trying as hard to pull it straight back (follow its arc instead) may help for not dropping groups.