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Thread: Gotta keep them ARs clean

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    Yes, but the context was poor. The whole "no combat ready unit ever passed inspection" thing is just bullshit. .....
    I wouldn't know having never been in the military so I'll defer to you. My guess is it depends a lot on who is doing the inspection and why.

    Let me throw another analogy at you. My local Sheriff's office promotes Police and Corrections Officers based largely on a test of their detailed knowlege of general orders, city ordinances and state statutes. Guys and gals with good memories have a huge advantage though a fine memory is not necessary for the job. The test is used because it is an objective standard and easier to defend than more subjective measures of leadership ability, et cetera.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinzgauer View Post
    Yep, the last thing a West Point plebe would want to do is question his Regular Army senior NCO instructor! You do it *their* way.
    At least as he goes up in the ranks he can be in a position of influence to make positive changes

    Quote Originally Posted by pinzgauer View Post
    Well down that path prior to his heading to USMA, his personal M4gery is about 2k+ of Tula & Wolf without anything more than cycling 2-3 drops of CLP in the carrier vents each outing. It's amazing how well that works. He's converted! (Not that I would recommend that for duty weapons)

    But we were early adopters, I have an HK-91 that has been detail cleaned once a decade since the early 80's whether it needed it or not!
    Awesome, did a similar test with one of my personal rifles before deploying.
    A mix of various ammo types from Federal, Wolf, Tula, and Hornady Steel Case. 1000 rds one day, never cleaned it just dropped a good amount of Slip 2000 or CLP. (I'll always wipe down the exterior of the rifle with baby wipes and a dry rag after a day of use.)
    A week later an advanced carbine course with 500+ rds, no stoppages, reapply lube.
    With pre-deployment workups that took up about a month I decided to not clean out the mess inside rifle, just drop Slip 2000 and store away just to see if I get any failures next time. So a month later, I take it out and shoot another 1000 rds in a day, no failures!

    For this deployment, my job involves firing much larger weapon systems than my rifle but I still make sure the bolt is well lubed and that my Marines do the same in the case we need to use it. When I do break my M4/M203 down I make sure all the important parts are well lubed, check for any abnormalities, check mags for any cracks and make sure my RCO is still tight as my unit still doesn't have the GDI mounts for them yet.

    Never had the pleasure to shoot a HK G3/91, from what I read the roller locking system gets as dirty too?

  3. #163
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    All rifles get dirty. With the fluted chambers, the HK gets a good amount of carbon in there but doesn't seem to build up. Some claim the HKs are a pain to clean, but I don't find that to be so
    Last edited by MistWolf; 12-09-12 at 20:24.
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    Yes, but the context was poor. The whole "no combat ready unit ever passed inspection" thing is just bullshit. That was my point. And the completion of given tasks do require leadership and a warrior mindset. Maybe the cleaning part of the ORSE is not neccessary for operational effectiveness, but it might be neccessary to do a proper inspection. I cannot comment as I am not familiar with the process.

    We have 4 quarterly inspections every year, that requires detail cleaning. That is for ease of inspection, not operational effectiveness. I don't care if cleaning patches don't come out super-white after being pulled through the barrel.

    Anyways, my biggest point of contention on this issue is that some people equal lube to preventative maintenance, and that operational readiness doesn't require much. My experience is that an approach like that in combat is setting yourself up for failure. And it is transferrable to other types of equipment as well, including vehicles etc. We do specific pre mission checks, halt checks and post mission checks on vehicles. When you skip these thing, that's when shit starts to break down; forgot to check the oil, forgot to check the breaks, forgot to check coolant levels etc. Recovery operations really takes the momentum out of operations.
    Yes PCCs/PCIs are important, we normally conduct PMCS to our equipment to ensure we are capable of providing fire support at anytime.
    I've only seen that quote used to describe units where uniform nazi SNCOs or Officers think conducting uniform inspections before going outside the wire is more important than ensuring actual MOS proficiency. Shaving, haircuts, white socks, etc have absolutely NOTHING to do with combat readiness/proficiency.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    All rifles get dirty. With the fluted chambers, the HK gets a good amount of carbon in there but doesn't seem to build up. Some claim the HKs are a pain to clean, but I don't find that to be so

    I think the G3 is a pain in the ass to clean, personally. Especially the barrel extension and barrel (it would sweat badly).
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    ...(it would sweat badly).
    You mean condensation from coming on out of the cold?
    Last edited by MistWolf; 12-10-12 at 10:06.
    INSIDE PLAN OF BOX
    1. ROAD-RUNNER LIFTS GLASS OF WATER- PULLING UP MATCH
    2. MATCH SCRATCHES ON MATCH-BOX
    3. MATCH LIGHTS FUSE TO TNT
    4. BOOM!
    5. HA-HA!!

    -WILE E. COYOTE, AUTHOR OF "EVERYTHING I NEEDED TO KNOW IN LIFE, I LEARNED FROM GOLDBERG & MURPHY"

    http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Carbine/DSC_0114.jpg
    I am American

  7. #167
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    This thread has stirred so many memories from the mid 80's. Ft Lewis Wa, sitting in the hallway for hours and hours cleaning weapons. Why did we have to sit in the hallway? Because so many of my fellow soldiers were absolute idiots. Example- One guy decided to use a patch meant for the M-60 barrel on his M-16. He got her halfway through.

    I figured out on my own how much we wasted time back then. I also figured out on my own that break free was crap when it got cold. Some stuff called Tri-Flow(or something like that) from the px worked pretty good and when it got cold, my weapon was usually the only one working.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    You mean condensation from coming on out of the cold?
    No, fouling coming out of micro-pores in the barrel.

    Often we would clean our weapon after having been at the range, and the patches would be completely white. When the NCO's and officers came to inspect the rifle the day after, the patch they ran through the bore was more often than not dirty. That fouling was from the micro-pores in the barrels, "sweating" during the night.

    This was 12 years ago, though, during my conscript service where the focus was retard clean weapons. We had receivers and barrels that were so worn they rusted just thinking about rain. During that time people scrubbed the gun with steel wool and what not.

    Our issued cleaning kit only contained a flexible cleaning rod with eyelet, nylon chamber brush and a bottle for lube. Copper/bronze brushes were not very common.

    I think we stopped the whole detail cleaning regime as SOP maybe 6-7 years ago in my unit. Only for quarterly inspections.
    Last edited by Arctic1; 12-10-12 at 10:31.
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  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magelk View Post
    I also figured out on my own that break free was crap when it got cold.
    Why is CLP crap in the cold? Operating temp for BreakFree CLP is -75F/-59C. I've used CLP in temps ranging from -50C to +50C, without issue.
    Last edited by Arctic1; 12-10-12 at 10:40.
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  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    All rifles get dirty. With the fluted chambers, the HK gets a good amount of carbon in there but doesn't seem to build up. Some claim the HKs are a pain to clean, but I don't find that to be so
    The fluted chamber takes a different technique to clean, but my experience is that HK produces just a tiny fraction of the carbon that AR's do, so it's just not an issue.

    Mine has had a steady diet of German surplus 7.62 NATO date coded from 1959 up to the late 80's. Some of it even the slightly tarnished bulk stuff. In the 80's the surplus German stuff was cheaper than even 5.56, and we shot tons of the the stuff.

    I will say that my experience you should not run the HK "wet" like an AR. It's not needed, and appears to trap & suspend more carbon that would normally get blown out with ejection. So light lube for the critical areas is what I've found works best.

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