Firearms instructors...

[mick610]

Recently there was a small debate going about the value of shooting videos versus hands on with an "Instructor" while learning to shoot.
The statement was made that Joe Schmoe likely couldn't learn how to shoot from videos and MUST HAVE an instructor to guide him through the fundamentals.
I'll throw THAT flag down now. I have no intention of being rude, just realistic. To say that anyone couldn't watch a video or read a good book on the topic then learn to perform is ridiculous! When I went to the Police Academy in 1980 I had never had any training period. I outshot my FBI Instructor with a S&W model 19. I had been shooting for almost 10 years ( I was older than 21).
I shoot with three other LTD GMS and a Production GM locally who have NEVER taken any formal training of any kind. They came to the range with a gun one day, saw what worked and practiced HARD! A bunch of rounds later they have it right, really fast and YOU can't catch them.
I've trained LE for 24 years and now that I'm retired, I make a good deal of money teaching for a Federal Agency as a contract instructor but I'm not so vane to say the guys and gals I work with couldn't do it without me or any other instructor. I'm not selling any special technique or video, just basic fundamentals geared toward speed.
I don't make a living (not many do) from teaching the public to be mall ninjas and do the latest tacticool method that really isn't new.

I've worked with instructors from most of the Federal branches as well as PDs, Sheriff's Offices and Constable's Offices. I've seen a bunch. I taught the TCLEOSE Firearms Instructor School for the State of Texas for a few years before I retired and helped them to become instructors by showing them the State reguirements and letting them do it.
With all that said, If you are one of the instructors that has a big ego just because you went to a few classes and now want to teach the public, get over yourself.
There are allot of real instructors out there who spent time on Military and LE ranges and know what shooting is. They also recognize people for who they are and when those people come to the line, they treat them as intelligent people who don't want to be mall ninjas!
Not Joe Schmoe....

[Littlelebowski]

There's no comparison in time saved and therefore money saved regarding in going with an instructor who can make you stick with a schedule and override your ego to show you your mistakes. Maybe, in a perfect world; we'd all have shooting ranges at our disposal, video cameras to show us our mistakes, and copious amounts of time to spend fist studying books and videos, then writing out a schedule of training, and then shooting.

However, it's not a perfect world and 2 hours with an instructor who has been down the path you have chosen is far better than screwing around for hours and days, chasing your fancy. I've seen some people shoot OK while standing there, shooting at a target but as soon as you change the target size, throw in some reloads, or drills, they fall apart. I don't think people instinctively know how to reload properly, know how fast to go on differing sizes of targets, holdovers at distance, and so on.

In other words, I respectfully and completely disagree.

[NoveskeFan]

To say that anyone couldn't watch a video or read a good book on the topic then learn to perform is ridiculous!

To say that everyone can watch a video and go perform on their own is also ridiculous. As a firearms instructor, I see people of all skill levels. The male Recruit that never held a gun to the female Captain with natural talent and ability that can put every round in a 8" circle during a 50 round qual. We are not just teaching how to press the trigger, we are also teaching safety. We are also looking for those little things people have problems with like flinching, trigger slapping/control, grip, etc. Makes it easier when an instructor is there to help, versus looking at ones target, going to a video, book or website to try and self diagnose, going back to the range to try and fix the issue.

[C4IGrant]

Much anger in your post. I am also not aware of what instructor you are referring to that has "attended a few classes and now wants to teach." So man up and name names.


Since you are throwing your BS Flag, I will throw mine. To date, I have never seen anyone that is self-taught shoot as well as someone that has received quality firearms instruction AND practiced what they have learned. Let me clear on self-taught. That means that some Uncle/Father/Brother/Friend that had formal training NEVER helped, gave input or assisted in ANY WAY.

With that out of the way, I am sure that there are people out there that watched some video, practiced and are a good shooters (chit happens as they say). This is not common though.
Every month I teach FREE classes at my local gun club. With the popularity of the Magpul videos, I see a lot of shooters that have mimicked what they saw. They do a fair job at replicating Costa or Travis, but there is typically an inherent flaw in what they doing (they just don't know it because they cannot see themselves shoot). They typically shoot faster than they can hit, do movements in weird places (because they don't know the theory or reason behind something) & their gun handling skills are lacking. This is no ding on the Magpul vids, but just that they are more on the entertainment side VS substance side. So you get people with a lot of flash, but no fundamentals.

My training partner (local SO Firearms Instructor) does this thing where he points his butt at the target, bends down and shoots between his legs. He can hit small targets @ 50yds or greater all the while being upside down. In fact, I saw him do Kyle Defoor's run 25yds to the 25yd line, turn around shoot 6 rounds (upside down) and pass the drill (all within 18 seconds). Point to the story??? People can overcome bad fundamentals (grips, stance, etc) as long as they practice enough.

The question I always ask is, how much longer does it take a person to learn to shoot well (that is self-taught) than if they had learned the correct way on everything from the beginning??

My argument is this. If we take two non-shooters and have one watch training vids for 6 months (NO outside help) and the other student spends 6 months training with Ken Hackathorn, which one would come out the better shooter??

If your theory is correct though, Tier 1 groups like Delta have been wasting a lot of time and money on trainers (when they could have just bought the video).


C4

[markm]

If your theory is correct though, Tier 1 groups like Delta have been wasting a lot of time and money on trainers (when they could have just bought the video).

Youtube has cheap, free stuff. Don't BUY a video.

[C4IGrant]

There's no comparison in time saved and therefore money saved regarding in going with an instructor who can make you stick with a schedule and override your ego to show you your mistakes. Maybe, in a perfect world; we'd all have shooting ranges at our disposal, video cameras to show us our mistakes, and copious amounts of time to spend fist studying books and videos, then writing out a schedule of training, and then shooting.

However, it's not a perfect world and 2 hours with an instructor who has been down the path you have chosen is far better than screwing around for hours and days, chasing your fancy. I've seen some people shoot OK while standing there, shooting at a target but as soon as you change the target size, throw in some reloads, or drills, they fall apart. I don't think people instinctively know how to reload properly, know how fast to go on differing sizes of targets, holdovers at distance, and so on.

In other words, I respectfully and completely disagree.

Agree. I am of the opinion that people CAN learn to shoot well on their own, but it might just take 10yrs to do so.



C4

[C4IGrant]

Youtube has cheap, free stuff. Don't BUY a video.

Right you are Sir! We also know that all the YouTube vids are FULL of quality info!


C4

[mick610]

So, y'all are saying one HAS to have that outside instruction or they just won't get it?

Think back. WHO taught YOU to shoot well?
How much self evaluation did YOU use?
Did you have one of those instructors who thought they knew it all?

My son just completed the Sheriff's Academy in Tarrant County (Ft Worth). His instructor embarrassed himself the first day and couldn't recover from his comments. A friend I've worked with took over.
Junior shot a 100% score on his qualification with one round on the line. We all know that virtually all scoring systems let you count the hole that breaks the line but I realize a few exceptions.
The instructors wouldn't give him the 100% score! Why? He beat them. Their egos couldn't handle the hit!!! He was pissed and took pictures. It's a 100%. So why do instructors do that?????
When you treat people like the village idiot who can't handle a gun we all lose credibilty. THAT happened at the FED range the other day where the student was a very high ranked person few knew about! THAT instructor was a seasoned Federal agent. WHY?



Then again, maybe it's a TEXAS thing. We all know how to shoot here!

Thanks

[mick610]

Agree. I am of the opinion that people CAN learn to shoot well on their own, but it might just take 10yrs to do so.



C4

There it is! The attitude that it can't be done without help unless it takes forever.
Who has an ego so big that would say you can't do it without them?????

I can prove that one not to be true. I'll introduce you to the GMs I mentioned...

YOU could turn this into a #### measuring contest but the truth is go prove YOU have reached a higher level of skill and that your training is above the next guys and make yourself valid. Lets' name some names. What makes you (anyone) an instructor????

and OBTW, Jerry M does have some really good youtube shots on things no one else in the world can do...

[M4Guru]

Until we get a DVD player that is a sentient being that can diagnose mistakes on the fly I would say an instructor is better at building a base of fundamentals, no contest.

Imagine starting any complex task out with no experience, limited experience, or bad experience and be expected to master it based solely on a video made for the masses, with no personalized instruction or an ability to ask questions. I consider that to be pretty unrealistic.

Maybe when you are at a certain level of proficiency you can see a technique, understand it's purpose and method, and replicate it correctly. For that I think video or pictorial instruction is acceptable as a primer or reference, but still not necessarily ideal. I also think many videos are great as a refresher to help see things from a basic levevl class again, kind of a course notes type of thing to help you remember, maintain and perfect skills.

There are an absolute ton of top level competetive shooters shooting at a level I can't come close to matching, in a couple of years behind a gun. Competition is a great catalyst to boosting your shooting skills, as paying attention at a match and the thinking involved in solving those shooting problems is an educational experience as well.