Firearms instructors...

[Littlelebowski]

So, y'all are saying one HAS to have that outside instruction or they just won't get it?

Think back. WHO taught YOU to shoot well?
How much self evaluation did YOU use?
Did you have one of those instructors who thought they knew it all?

My son just completed the Sheriff's Academy in Tarrant County (Ft Worth). His instructor embarrassed himself the first day and couldn't recover from his comments. A friend I've worked with took over.
Junior shot a 100% score on his qualification with one round on the line. We all know that virtually all scoring systems let you count the hole that breaks the line but I realize a few exceptions.
The instructors wouldn't give him the 100% score! Why? He beat them. Their egos couldn't handle the hit!!! He was pissed and took pictures. It's a 100%. So why do instructors do that?????
When you treat people like the village idiot who can't handle a gun we all lose credibilty. THAT happened at the FED range the other day where the student was a very high ranked person few knew about! THAT instructor was a seasoned Federal agent. WHY?



Then again, maybe it's a TEXAS thing. We all know how to shoot here!

Thanks

I'm from Wyoming and don't get the state braggadocio but maybe you were joking. I think most of your self taught guys would fall apart on some advanced drills. Wait....I've seen it happen.

[C4IGrant]

So, y'all are saying one HAS to have that outside instruction or they just won't get it?

I am not sure who is saying that. Did you read what we wrote? We think that SOME people MIGHT be able to get it (assuming they watch quality vids, practice a lot are willing to put double or triple the time into it).

Think back. WHO taught YOU to shoot well?
How much self evaluation did YOU use?
Did you have one of those instructors who thought they knew it all?

My first basic firearms instruction came from my Father who was taught by his Father (who was a OSP). Then Blackwater, Vickers Tactical, Hackathorn, Pat Rogers, on and on.

In the early years of training, I practiced what I had been taught, but left the "evaluations" to the firearms instructors (as I didn't know what I didn't know).
I have stayed away from instructors that use such terms as "this is the ONLY way to do this." So no, I have not come across the type of instructor you are talking about.

My son just completed the Sheriff's Academy in Tarrant County (Ft Worth). His instructor embarrassed himself the first day and couldn't recover from his comments. A friend I've worked with took over.
Junior shot a 100% score on his qualification with one round on the line. We all know that virtually all scoring systems let you count the hole that breaks the line but I realize a few exceptions.
The instructors wouldn't give him the 100% score! Why? He beat them. Their egos couldn't handle the hit!!! He was pissed and took pictures. It's a 100%. So why do instructors do that?????
When you treat people like the village idiot who can't handle a gun we all lose credibilty. THAT happened at the FED range the other day where the student was a very high ranked person few knew about! THAT instructor was a seasoned Federal agent. WHY?

That is a shame and there are of course bad instructors out there just like there are bad lawyers, doctors, etc.



C4

[mick610]

LOL, the real stuff gets deleted .....


"My argument is this. If we take two non-shooters and have one watch training vids for 6 months (NO outside help) and the other student spends 6 months training with Ken Hackathorn, which one would come out the better shooter??"

Might depend on the who the students are....

There is only one Ken that I know of and I wouldn't profess to be him.
I wouldn't make a subjective statement either....

[C4IGrant]

There it is! The attitude that it can't be done without help unless it takes forever.
Who has an ego so big that would say you can't do it without them?????

I can prove that one not to be true. I'll introduce you to the GMs I mentioned...

YOU could turn this into a #### measuring contest but the truth is go prove YOU have reached a higher level of skill and that your training is above the next guys and make yourself valid. Lets' name some names. What makes you (anyone) an instructor????

and OBTW, Jerry M does have some really good youtube shots on things no one else in the world can do...

I will oblige you, ok there is one person that has NEVER received outside guidance, watched training vids and then became a GM (within a years’ time right)?



C4

[C4IGrant]

LOL, the real stuff gets deleted .....


"My argument is this. If we take two non-shooters and have one watch training vids for 6 months (NO outside help) and the other student spends 6 months training with Ken Hackathorn, which one would come out the better shooter??"

Might depend on the who the students are....

There is only one Ken that I know of and I wouldn't profess to be him.
I wouldn't make a subjective statement either....

The students are average folks off the street (having never owned a firearm).

If your theory is correct, your guy would win.

Wanna take that bet? If not...........



C4

[d90king]

So, y'all are saying one HAS to have that outside instruction or they just won't get it?

Think back. WHO taught YOU to shoot well?
How much self evaluation did YOU use?
Did you have one of those instructors who thought they knew it all?

First it was General Espaillat (was a LT at that time in 1984) then it was Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, JD Northern Red, Paul Tobias and many others that will remain private etc, etc, etc.

Yes, I do a LOT of self evaluation, but if I didn't already have an established baseline what would I use as my barometer? A video? I don't think so.

I would agree with whoever said you can't learn to shoot from a video. I do believe that after you have solidified the fundamentals that you can pick up some things from video that very well might help your shooting.

I haven't found anything other than dry fire (after you learn a proper trigger pull) and working on your draw (after you have learned a proper drawstroke) that comes close to one on one personal instruction from a great instructor.

And no, I have never had a know it all instructor, though many might argue that they in fact do know all that you need to know.

[d90king]

LOL, the real stuff gets deleted .....


"My argument is this. If we take two non-shooters and have one watch training vids for 6 months (NO outside help) and the other student spends 6 months training with Ken Hackathorn, which one would come out the better shooter??"

Might depend on the who the students are....

There is only one Ken that I know of and I wouldn't profess to be him.
I wouldn't make a subjective statement either....

Is this a serious question? If so I'll put my money on the guy that hung out with the Dali Lama for 6 months... Hell, I'm pretty sure that simply hanging out with Ken for six months would make you a better shooter, and person.

[C4IGrant]

Is this a serious question? If so I'll put my money on the guy that hung out with the Dali Lama for 6 months... Hell, I'm pretty sure that simply hanging out with Ken for six months would make you a better shooter, and person.

If nothing else, your GUN knowledge will have grown 100X!




C4

[C4IGrant]

OP, aren't you a firearms instructor???? Why not just record a video of you demoing drills and talking and turn that on for your students???



C4

[Jack-O]

A mans ego is the single biggest detriment to his learning a skill. they say everything is bigger in texas...

a good trainer is not like the jackasses you seem to be describing. Those are what we call "bad instructors" and are not worth visiting. I've driven across the country to go to good instructors and even flown across borders to seek out the experts in the feild.

A good instructor will give you the chance to fail and break down the ego wall to allow new information and training to get in. this is the hall mark of a good instructor, and something you will never get from a video and only very rarely from being self taught. they can jam a lot of information into a short time span and drastically speed up the learning cycle.

Being able to hit a target is not the equivalent of being trained. Shooting is only about 10% marksmansip.

Think back. WHO taught YOU to shoot well?

A good instructor and program designed to teach the skill (no not the military, I learned more in three days than 8 years in the service about shooting)

How much self evaluation did YOU use?

A TON. all the best courses I took required not only self evaluation but included priceless observer evaluation. the best courses taught me how to train myself and vet new skills

Did you have one of those instructors who thought they knew it all?

Generally most of them did not have that attitude. most of the guys were there to learn as much as I was and took every opportunity to learn from the varied experiences of the students. i chose my instructors ahead of time to avoid those know-it-all types as those folks have little to teach and much to say.


One of the sayings that trainers say is that "you dont know what you dont know". Having attended little if any training I think you are firmly in this category... right along with the rest of us who have been to lots of classes

p.s. I find videos useful for review AFTER i've taken a class. they help me remember things and I tend to see things differently once a skill has been imparted and take away a new more in depth meaning. I do think a guy can learn but I have yet to see anyone at the range with a video player actually doing it.