Accuracy of AA 5.45 upper with surplus?

[09stanggt]

Hi, I've done my due diligence and searched the forum about the topic b4 posting. I saw many posts related to the Adams Arms and S&W uppers occasionally keyholing. My question is a little different.

I bought 2 cases of the spam cans and I think 1,000 rounds of Wolf before I even had the upper. I want to say I have maybe 500 - 750 rounds through it and never had a keyhole. However, I'm probably averaging 2" at 50 yard, opening up to 4 or 5 at 100. Is this what you'd expect to see? Regardless of whether shooting the surplus or the 70 gr. Wolf, this is pretty consistent.

I'm using a Burris 4.5-14x scope on a YHM riser. I'm using a RRA lower with a Geissele SR trigger. With a RRA SR upper and this lower, I don't have a problem shooting sub-MOA off the bench. And yes, someone else has shot the rifle with similar results.

The only modification I've made to the rifle is that I installed an MI free float rail specifically for this AA upper. I thought that might tighten it up a bit over the handguards, but it accomplished nothing accuracy-wise. I've also tried removing the A2 flash hider and shooting it this way, no improvement.

One of the reasons I decided to remove the FH to begin with was that I wanted to get a look at the crown. To my eye it doesn't have much of one compared to a bolt gun. But then again, I just looked at a brand new DPMS .223 barrel I have and it doesn't appear to have much of one either.

I'm debating about renting a .20 cal crown cutter and having at this. I've only known of one person to claim sub-moa with surplus and this combination. They also stated they had a much higher top end power on their scope. I would prefer more power for shooting off the bench at 100, but it's not like I'm shooting bugholes at 50 yards where 14 is plenty of magnification.

Now, I realize what this upper is and what I intended to really use it for when I bought it. And I obviously know I'm shooting corrosive Soviet surplus. I'm just a little baffled that the Wolf is just as bad. I'm somewhat tempted to buy either the Hornady 60 gr. or some other flavor of Wolf, but I don't think I'm going to gain anything.

I read enough posts here where guys were reporting very good accuracy from the S&W upper. I'm just wondering if this is the nature of the beast with the piston. It's not unusable, I just thought it would do at least 2 MOA. I would think that both these uppers might actually have the same barrel from T/C. It is 1:8 btw, and I cut off the delta ring to install the MI rails. The handguard cap is still attached but doesn't touch the end of the rail.

I'm sorry this is so long-winded but I am asking for help/opinion and I didn't want to leave details out that seem pertinent. No, I haven't contacted AA to complain about accuracy either. I'm not sure I would bother regardless of what I do or don't do to the rifle in the future. I had also purchased C products 5.45 well in advance of buying the upper. I have had no feeding/ejecting type of problems with the upper at all. It runs like a top, just wish it grouped a little tighter. Maybe I should have more diminished expectations? LOL, thanks in advance.

[CoryCop25]

I have read your post twice not but I'm not sure that I am tracking what you are asking.

If I am correct, are you saying that you are shooting sub-MOA with your .223 upper and you are now shooting 4 to 5 MOA with your piston upper chambered in 5.45X39?

If this is the case, 4 to 5 MOA in a set up like that is about standard. As long as the groups are consistent, there is no issues.

People tend to think that .mil weapons are tack drivers but 4 to 5 MOA is standard. Considering the weapon the 5.45X39 was designed for, 4-5 MOA is good.

[09stanggt]

LMAO Cory, I may have confused you but yes you briefly stated exactly what I asked. Yes, my groups are consistent but I'm "reading" here and there that the S&W uppers are at least MOA with 7n6 and saw one really good target "on the internet" from the other person's AA upper that I mentioned.

Trying to determine fact from fiction. Do these uppers shoot anywhere near as accurately as a .223 upper or is that just on the internet? Unfortunately in the past replies all I've gotten is gee, I don't really know cause I just blast away with it more as a plinker.

I got this to maybe take to classes or carbine type matches. It would work fine as long as it's not some kind of stage out to 300 yards as I'm not sure this thing would hang on anything but a rather huge target.

[CoryCop25]

I have a 4.45X39 Polish Tantal but not an AR platform in that caliber. LittleLebowski seems to be the in house SME on the AR platform in that caliber. He's a great dude and you may want to shoot some questions his way.

I will have to side with the masses here and say that the 5.45 upper is a great upper for volume shooting on a budget and has better training characteristics than a 22LR. upper. I think it is going to be hit or miss on getting a tack driving barrel in that caliber.

[Littlelebowski]

I think the 5.45 AR is maybe a 2 MOA gun. I've shot 2MOA groups with it before and so has a friend with his. 1 MOA? I doubt it and also think that's asking too much. It's a carbine in a caliber most relegate to "training only" because of cost. Think about that.

Below is a 10 (with an extra because I can't ****ing count) shot group, I shot at 100 yards at the Kyle Defoor Advanced Carbine class. I'm happy with that group shot from a 16" barreled, 4MOA Aimpoint equipped carbine using surplus ammo manufactured in the 80's in the USSR. I can probably top that group while at a home range, taking my time. However, it's a real group, shot in front of witnesses on this forum. Myself and Keydet08 shot next to each other throughout the whole class. He had a magnified optic on top of a 5.56 Noveske. We pretty much matched each other's results at close range, speed, and distance. What does that tell you?

[Littlelebowski]

I'm on my second barrel for my 5.45 S&W. Two factory barrels make me believe that this is not "at least an MOA" gun. That's honestly bullshit from my 23k or so rounds of experience. Yeah, it's free floated and the trigger is broken in.

[09stanggt]

Thanks LL. That's what I would believe vs. what I've heard. I didn't think Ivan was making match ammo for another AK bullethose. Just disappointed with the Wolf, thought it might do better.

Although I have to shoot the groups from the bench at the range closest to me, I'm not babying the rifle. I shoot it, and the barrel gets hot, so the dimensions I'm giving are repeatable. If I shot it very slowly trying to keep the barrel cool, it might do better but that kind of defeats the purpose.

I'm not trying to melt the barrel or even able to rapid fire, but in FL in the summer after 20 minutes of shooting you know it's hot. It's the only piston upper I own. I kind of have to laugh at it. Ok, we've moved the heat out of the chamber/action to the gas block.

I get what you're saying about it being a carbine. Even though you can say well a shorter barrel is more rigid, accurate, blah blah. Might hold true on a bolt gun, but on these goofy M4 contour barrels, I think they're just machining more stress into the barrel. Thanks again for realistic expectations. Still loving it even if ammo is up to 16 cents or so per round.

[Littlelebowski]

For what it's worth, I think the Sov surplus ammo far outperforms the cheap 5.56 offerings. I'll be interested in seeing if and when your barrel wears out if the manufacturer will replace it like S&W did mine.

[500grains]

I'm on my second barrel for my 5.45 S&W. Two factory barrels make me believe that this is not "at least an MOA" gun. That's honestly bullshit from my 23k or so rounds of experience. Yeah, it's free floated and the trigger is broken in.

Anyone who thinks S&W is offering quality rifles should do a bit more research.

[Littlelebowski]

Anyone who thinks S&W is offering quality rifles should do a bit more research.

Pat Rogers just endorsed them. I've recorded my experience with mine in a very public manner and many people here have seen me shoot it. What are your firsthand experiences? Be specific.