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Thread: 1st tier, 2nd tier?

  1. #1
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    Question 1st tier, 2nd tier?

    New to the forum and I have been reading a lot of topics before posting and I have my first question. I see a lot of reference to third tier AR manufactures and 3rd tier quality guns etc... but there is no reference to which is what. I did read a bit about what is mil-spec and what is not and what some manufactures claim etc ...

    So my question is ... is there an actual list of what manufactures are considered by most to be the 1st tier, 2nd tier 3rd tier or is this more of a personal point of view? Are there any that pretty much everyone seems to agree is in one place or the other?

    I have a Colt 6520 and a Sig 516 and I love them both. I'm wondering where the quality seems to fall with those for example. Is the Sig barrel mil-spec with proper 5.56 chamber and barrel composition? Sure shoots nice although it is piston so it is in some ways not comparing apples to apples, but the barrel should be the same. But I don't see much mention of where that fits in the "tiers".

  2. #2
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    Tiers are bullshit.
    The best way to determine if a gun is built to be shot for a long time is adherence to TDP, or a good reason why the part(s) used did not meet the protocol.

    Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
    Jack Leuba
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    Knight's Armament Company
    jleuba@knightarmco.com

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by xSentinel View Post
    New to the forum and I have been reading a lot of topics before posting and I have my first question. I see a lot of reference to third tier AR manufactures and 3rd tier quality guns etc... but there is no reference to which is what. I did read a bit about what is mil-spec and what is not and what some manufactures claim etc ...

    So my question is ... is there an actual list of what manufactures are considered by most to be the 1st tier, 2nd tier 3rd tier or is this more of a personal point of view? Are there any that pretty much everyone seems to agree is in one place or the other?
    There are no actual tiers and is honestly personal opinion. I put rifles into different groups based off of my experience with them, but that is just my preferences.

    I have a Colt 6520 and a Sig 516 and I love them both. I'm wondering where the quality seems to fall with those for example. Is the Sig barrel mil-spec with proper 5.56 chamber and barrel composition? Sure shoots nice although it is piston so it is in some ways not comparing apples to apples, but the barrel should be the same. But I don't see much mention of where that fits in the "tiers".
    Your 516 is a piston gun. So some of it just isn't going to follow the TDP. With that said, you can still look at the barrel steel, bolt steel, testing done, etc and get an idea of how well it is made.

    IMHO, when you get into anything that is basically NOT an M4, you need to just look at materials used and how it was assembled. Then pay attention to other owners reviews of said gun.




    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 09-25-12 at 11:18.

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    Ah I get it. So when someone here says that xyz is just a third tier manufacturer what they mean is that "to them" they are a 3rd tier quality manufacturer. Of course someone else might consider that same company a 1st tier manufacturer. This can be confusing to someone reading that kind of thing written by someone whose opinion is valued. It leads a person to believe that there are actual rankings of companies that follow the specs more closely than others and as such are listed in order of their adherence to it.

    I wonder how the Sig516's non-piston parts such as barrel etc... compare quality wise. I see a lot of opinons like "Sig stuff is not as good" or "I've heard that Sig stuff is not as good" but these seem to be personal opinions more than factual data. Does anyone have any factual data about how Sig's barrels, frames, bolts and other parts other than piston parts, compare from a technical standpoint?

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    The following is my opinion developed by reading here and elsewhere and for the ever-helpful Chart.

    First Tier: Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, Noveske, KAC, and Centurion (uppers only). MAYBE JP Enterprises, Wilson Combat and Les Baer could fit into this tier, but I am not well enough informed to actually put them in.

    Other Tiers: Crap that I do not wish to own. No offense, but any Sig from Exeter, NH falls into the crap tier. Sig from Germany is usually much better quality.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    Tiers are bullshit.
    Yep. When you start to read a reply and someone it talking tiers... tune them out..
    "You people have too much time on your hands." - scottryan

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    As others have mentioned tiers are BS. Any fanboy will put whoever built their M4 as tier 1. As Grant said, find a manufactor that is mil spec and follows the TDP and then talk to said owners. Still will be a biased opinion but at least talk to people who run their rifle hard instead of someone who has a safe queen.

    As far as your rifles our concerned if both work for you and are dependable it doesn't matter about their "tier".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    Tiers are bullshit.
    The best way to determine if a gun is built to be shot for a long time is adherence to TDP, or a good reason why the part(s) used did not meet the protocol.

    Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
    TDP is great, but I would also think that industry reputation counts for something to. Just because Noveske doesn't follow the TDP with their M249 MG barrel steel, doesn't mean it isn't just as good or better than the TDP barrel steel. Cost and availability are important factors in the TDP, so sometimes you can get something better for a little more money.
    Last edited by S. Galbraith; 09-25-12 at 14:40.
    Insert impressive resume here.

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    Very true, buying say an upper with better specs than a name brand even though the brand might be no name. Specs rule in my opinion. You can buy cheaper lowers and uppers with better specs than the big brand companies.
    Live in ban state, always looking for preban stuff.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGut View Post
    As others have mentioned tiers are BS. Any fanboy will put whoever built their M4 as tier 1. As Grant said, find a manufactor that is mil spec and follows the TDP and then talk to said owners. Still will be a biased opinion but at least talk to people who run their rifle hard instead of someone who has a safe queen.

    As far as your rifles our concerned if both work for you and are dependable it doesn't matter about their "tier".
    Bingo!!
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    Thanks Grant!!!
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